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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 19, 2018 16:18:21 GMT
I haven't attacked your opinion at all. I find the technical discussion quite interesting. Its the presentation of said discussion and your inability to appreciate how it hurts your points more than helps them that I find particularly amusing. [This and your previous post] No need for psychiatric appraisal unless you can present your certificate in the field. Whether you think it's justified or not you are blatantly being unkind (vast understatement due to profanity filters) to a fellow human being. Take it to private messaging if you are so inclined.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 19, 2018 16:42:41 GMT
I haven't attacked your opinion at all. I find the technical discussion quite interesting. Its the presentation of said discussion and your inability to appreciate how it hurts your points more than helps them that I find particularly amusing. [This and your previous post] No need for psychiatric appraisal unless you can present your certificate in the field. Whether you think it's justified or not you are blatantly being unkind (vast understatement due to profanity filters) to a fellow human being. Take it to private messaging if you are so inclined. It's easy to forget that behind every name here is a pursen, a human bean!
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Post by jagius021 on Apr 20, 2018 3:43:27 GMT
I can provide such identification, but then I will need your insurance info so I can bill it Really though, it's some pretty harsh discussion. Agree or disagree, be civil. As for caine0, I am pretty excited for him. Sure, snipe had awesome implications, but FFE is nice. I ran caine2 in gravediggers just to give the blockhouse FFE and it was wonderful. Now, we cant do the same with caine0 for heavy metal, but the examples point is to think a bit outside the box. He can hot swap it onto two targets a turn, turning already accurate gun mage solos into some pretty powerful scalpels in SotT.
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Post by cygnarstronk on Apr 20, 2018 16:32:30 GMT
I think the real deal on caine0 is forgetting about his personal output until later in the game and hot swap FFE (or have FFE on something that really needs it, like good AOEs from hurrican or THead).
I mean, hot swapping FFE nets you about 4 free focus points. If you hot swap on warrior models, like GMCAs, you just got 4 boosts. It's a whole lotta focus. Sure, you have to take models with multiple attacks to make it work good, but grenadiers and chargers would like it. a couple chargers require 0 focus from the caster and become 4 fully boosted rng12 pow12 each turn, maybe bring them with kara to shoot at stealth too, or well H2 or siege1 or anything like that for added value. Hot swapping on grenadiers in HM is a bit weird as you need the trencher mechanics and they are overcosted thrash, but boy it's a big load of focus gained. Forget about caine0 own jack, just get a sentinel or firefly and you are good with it. Late in the game he can start shooting boosted shots and that isn't bad too. Sure, sorscha0 IS BETTER, no way to deny it, but caine0 doesn't suck for sure. I mean drop harlan as a free solo and get Caine0, you'll probably get a lot more pseoudo focus from him as you ever will.
On a side note he makes ATGM's marshalled hunters a real threat. duo of hunters on ATGMs using crit brutal and FFE cycle is mean, you also have falk to make them even better, or you can pump out caster threatening fully boosted AP shots from 18 inches+7 movement, that's a lot. Fun fact you'll also have shadow fire in that list.
Just a couple quick lists that could be mean:
(Brisbane 1) Major Markus "Siege" Brisbane [+28]
- Ironclad [12]
- Triumph [18]
- Squire [0(5)]
Captain Arlan Strangewayes [0(4)]
Gun Mage Captain Adept [0(5)]
Gun Mage Captain Adept [5]
Journeyman Lieutenant Allister Caine [5]
- Firefly [8]
Lieutenant Bastian Falk [5]
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages [11]
- Hunter [10]
- Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer [4]
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages [11]
- Hunter [10]
- Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer [4]
Assassination potential is off the charts with shadow fire, siege's feat, double FFE hunters and all those push attacks. Infantry removal is stupid good. You will suffer against lists with a lot of jacks/beasts, as you can only hope for assassination, but heck you still have your second list to drop anyway.
Cygnar Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Heavy Metal
(Nemo 3) Artificer General Nemo [+25]
- Centurion [17]
- Dynamo [18]
- Thunderhead [20]
- Squire [0(5)]
Captain Arlan Strangewayes [4]
Journeyman Lieutenant Allister Caine [0(5)]
- Firefly [8]
Journeyman Warcaster [4]
- Firefly [8]
Field Mechaniks (min) [3]
Storm Strider [18]
Hot swapping FFE lets you camp, really really hard. You manage to have both THead and Dynamo go full power, while keeping a load of foucs to not die or to attack. I made these lists in like 10 mins, but both of them don't look so weak honestly.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 20, 2018 16:46:10 GMT
^ ^ ^
That guy is getting it. Much like Sev0 is quickly showing himself to be more useful in our worst theme(creator's might), Caine might be at his best in yours as well(never hear good things from cygnar players about the gunmages).
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Post by cygnarstronk on Apr 20, 2018 17:12:04 GMT
I would play the heck out of this too:
Cygnar Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Heavy Metal
(Brisbane 1) Major Markus "Siege" Brisbane [+28] - Defender [16] - Stormwall [39] - Triumph [18] - Squire [0(5)] Journeyman Lieutenant Allister Caine [0(5)] - Ace [12] Journeyman Warcaster [0(4)] - Hunter [10] Sword Knights (min) [8]
There is shooting for days, shadowfire for bonkers assassinations, a load of free focus from hot swapping FFE onto stormwall and siege himself, should clear infantry decently due to ground pounder and stormwall guns+caine himself with snipe+repo3. Journeyman has the hunter cause he'll have to recast AS every turn on the colossal, but still good IMO.the sword knights are there to get into a zone under foxhole and contest/score.
Edit: Honestly might be better with Hurrican, KD guns would make the assassination potential terrific coupled with shadowfire, and hto swapping FFE on the AOE si going to net you 2 fully boosted 4 inches AOEs.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 21, 2018 5:53:47 GMT
Oh, I'm trying to be objective. Its impossible for anyone to truly be objective, but I'm trying. I don't see the problem with finding faults with models that are currently being tested which would make those models simply not very useful. The fact that this thread is apparently filled with some extremely rude people who attack my character as soon as I post my opinion such as yourself is completely to the side of the Caine0 discussion. If you want to discuss Caine0, or you have a problem with my analysis, feel free to speak up. I haven't attacked your opinion at all. I find the technical discussion quite interesting. Its the presentation of said discussion and your inability to appreciate how it hurts your points more than helps them that I find particularly amusing. As for Caine0 I don't remember if its this thread or one of the many others but I have stated that I see plenty of good applications for FFE. Also compare Caine0's output to something like the hellsinger phantom (who is 7pts) and does very well there to. The fact that he can buff other models on top of doing his own thing and fuel a jack makes him pretty damn good. I think spirit door is dead weight and should be lowered in cost (also helps Kaya1 who needs the boost) or replaced but if released as is dude is just fine. To your larger point though no I haven't played him so yes this is all based on theory and model comparisons. Your assessment of my character has absolutely zero to do with the truth of my statements. If you cannot judge an argument without your judgement of the messenger clouding your response then you shouldn't be judging anyone's arguments. There are a large numbers of applications of FFE that contribute at best a meagre level of Focus efficiency, meaning that you can now boost more of Haley 2's Hurricane or Storm Strider shots with impunity. I never found myself running particularly low on Focus on those pieces so I wont be running out and purchasing Caine0 for this small amount of efficiency. There are a small number of places where FFE becomes more efficient, namely on Siege 1 ground pounders (where it is legitimately good) and on Falk (where it is strong with Falks weaker shot). Lets compare Caine0 to the Hellslinger Phantom, then, if you want this test. Points: - Both are able to be 0 and will generally be 0 so their actual points costs are irrelevant. Offensive capacity: - Hellslinger is Rat 8 native with his pistol that is identical to Caine0's. - Hellslinger's pistol shots are: Critical Grievous, Ghost shot and Fire, which are probably worse than Caine0's 3 shots of Snipe, Trick Shot and Thunderbolt - Hellslinger can take Soul Tokens and can either get 4 base shots or boost his shots while Caine can boost his attacks with his pistols (notably, Focus is also directly related to Caine's ability to survive and the efficacy of Caine's Jack) - The Hellslinger has Swift Hunter to make himself more mobile on offense and easier to get back after engaging. Defensive Capacity: - Hellslinger and Caine have the same defensive Statline, Hellslinger has Swift Hunter on turns that he attacks and Incorporeal on turns where he doesn't. - Caine has Focus, which lowers his offensive capacity if he camps it, or lowers his defensive capacity when he spends it. Available support: - Hellslinger has access to a lot of exceptional support in Cryx with Debuffs. Parasite, Marked for Death, Crippling grasp, etc. Lots of access to def and arm debuffs which don't need to be strictly cast on the Hellslinger, meaning less resources spent per model that can take advantage of them. - Caine0 has a few feats, but rarely will spells go onto the Hellslinger himself. Destruction Effects: - When the Hellslinger dies, he does not depower a jack. Caine0 has this weakness. Spirit Door isn't a good spell on a Junior. Lowering its cost by 1 still isn't very effective.
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Post by cygnarstronk on Apr 21, 2018 11:25:12 GMT
I haven't attacked your opinion at all. I find the technical discussion quite interesting. Its the presentation of said discussion and your inability to appreciate how it hurts your points more than helps them that I find particularly amusing. As for Caine0 I don't remember if its this thread or one of the many others but I have stated that I see plenty of good applications for FFE. Also compare Caine0's output to something like the hellsinger phantom (who is 7pts) and does very well there to. The fact that he can buff other models on top of doing his own thing and fuel a jack makes him pretty damn good. I think spirit door is dead weight and should be lowered in cost (also helps Kaya1 who needs the boost) or replaced but if released as is dude is just fine. To your larger point though no I haven't played him so yes this is all based on theory and model comparisons. Your assessment of my character has absolutely zero to do with the truth of my statements. If you cannot judge an argument without your judgement of the messenger clouding your response then you shouldn't be judging anyone's arguments. There are a large numbers of applications of FFE that contribute at best a meagre level of Focus efficiency, meaning that you can now boost more of Haley 2's Hurricane or Storm Strider shots with impunity. I never found myself running particularly low on Focus on those pieces so I wont be running out and purchasing Caine0 for this small amount of efficiency. There are a small number of places where FFE becomes more efficient, namely on Siege 1 ground pounders (where it is legitimately good) and on Falk (where it is strong with Falks weaker shot). Lets compare Caine0 to the Hellslinger Phantom, then, if you want this test. Points: - Both are able to be 0 and will generally be 0 so their actual points costs are irrelevant. Offensive capacity: - Hellslinger is Rat 8 native with his pistol that is identical to Caine0's. - Hellslinger's pistol shots are: Critical Grievous, Ghost shot and Fire, which are probably worse than Caine0's 3 shots of Snipe, Trick Shot and Thunderbolt - Hellslinger can take Soul Tokens and can either get 4 base shots or boost his shots while Caine can boost his attacks with his pistols (notably, Focus is also directly related to Caine's ability to survive and the efficacy of Caine's Jack) - The Hellslinger has Swift Hunter to make himself more mobile on offense and easier to get back after engaging. Defensive Capacity: - Hellslinger and Caine have the same defensive Statline, Hellslinger has Swift Hunter on turns that he attacks and Incorporeal on turns where he doesn't. - Caine has Focus, which lowers his offensive capacity if he camps it, or lowers his defensive capacity when he spends it. Available support: - Hellslinger has access to a lot of exceptional support in Cryx with Debuffs. Parasite, Marked for Death, Crippling grasp, etc. Lots of access to def and arm debuffs which don't need to be strictly cast on the Hellslinger, meaning less resources spent per model that can take advantage of them. - Caine0 has a few feats, but rarely will spells go onto the Hellslinger himself. Destruction Effects: - When the Hellslinger dies, he does not depower a jack. Caine0 has this weakness. Spirit Door isn't a good spell on a Junior. Lowering its cost by 1 still isn't very effective. So, you went from "he is crap" to "he is almost the same as the hellslinger phantom+the need of taking jack? Add in the utility of FFE when you do not need him go super solo and you are fine. Spirit Door is super weak on him, but outside of that he is good.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 21, 2018 13:21:14 GMT
I never said he is almost the same as the Hellslinger Phantom. I think the Phantom is a more effective combat solo because losing him isn't that much of a loss.
Caine is also significantly weaker than the Hellslinger Phantom offensively when taking the army support into account. The Hellslinger is very good opportunistically, Caine can't be opportunistic.
FFE doesn't add any utility, it adds dice numbers.
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Post by cygnarstronk on Apr 21, 2018 15:24:03 GMT
I never said he is almost the same as the Hellslinger Phantom. I think the Phantom is a more effective combat solo because losing him isn't that much of a loss. Caine is also significantly weaker than the Hellslinger Phantom offensively when taking the army support into account. The Hellslinger is very good opportunistically, Caine can't be opportunistic. FFE doesn't add any utility, it adds dice numbers. Honestly, hot swapping FFE and getting +7 damage average (2d6) is enough of a buff. If you want to use him as a shooty solo too you can do it perfectly in HM siege 1. Upkeep FFE for ground pounder gaining loads of free boosts (or 2 focus as he usually needs to boost to hit and damage) and then shoot with him using snipe+repo3. 17 away from the enemy sounds usually pretty decent for safety. You also have 3 focus left, so you are either camping like a boss or boosting those pow 10 shots, provided yyou gave him a jack that doesn't want your focus (firefly, sentinel, hunter and ace all need nearly 0 focus from the caster). If you upkeep FFE on siege1 or a colossal/THead, then boost 2 shots you are still 17 inches away from the opponent camping 1 focus for stray blasts, dirty long range shots and the likes.
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Post by pvtjoker on Apr 21, 2018 19:09:39 GMT
I never said he is almost the same as the Hellslinger Phantom. I think the Phantom is a more effective combat solo because losing him isn't that much of a loss. Caine is also significantly weaker than the Hellslinger Phantom offensively when taking the army support into account. The Hellslinger is very good opportunistically, Caine can't be opportunistic. FFE doesn't add any utility, it adds dice numbers. Honestly, hot swapping FFE and getting +7 damage average (2d6) is enough of a buff. If you want to use him as a shooty solo too you can do it perfectly in HM siege 1. Upkeep FFE for ground pounder gaining loads of free boosts (or 2 focus as he usually needs to boost to hit and damage) and then shoot with him using snipe+repo3. 17 away from the enemy sounds usually pretty decent for safety. You also have 3 focus left, so you are either camping like a boss or boosting those pow 10 shots, provided yyou gave him a jack that doesn't want your focus (firefly, sentinel, hunter and ace all need nearly 0 focus from the caster). If you upkeep FFE on siege1 or a colossal/THead, then boost 2 shots you are still 17 inches away from the opponent camping 1 focus for stray blasts, dirty long range shots and the likes. And since he works so well with a Siege1 Ground Pounder, shouldn't there be a Foxhole somewhere for Caine0 to be hanging out in? I really like the idea of Caine putting FFE on Siege and Siege putting Explosivo on Caine for Sniped AOEs on Feat turn. He may not be an auto-include power level, but he should have some fun lists. That works for me.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 21, 2018 22:49:10 GMT
I never said he is almost the same as the Hellslinger Phantom. I think the Phantom is a more effective combat solo because losing him isn't that much of a loss. Caine is also significantly weaker than the Hellslinger Phantom offensively when taking the army support into account. The Hellslinger is very good opportunistically, Caine can't be opportunistic. FFE doesn't add any utility, it adds dice numbers. Honestly, hot swapping FFE and getting +7 damage average (2d6) is enough of a buff. If you want to use him as a shooty solo too you can do it perfectly in HM siege 1. Upkeep FFE for ground pounder gaining loads of free boosts (or 2 focus as he usually needs to boost to hit and damage) and then shoot with him using snipe+repo3. 17 away from the enemy sounds usually pretty decent for safety. You also have 3 focus left, so you are either camping like a boss or boosting those pow 10 shots, provided yyou gave him a jack that doesn't want your focus (firefly, sentinel, hunter and ace all need nearly 0 focus from the caster). If you upkeep FFE on siege1 or a colossal/THead, then boost 2 shots you are still 17 inches away from the opponent camping 1 focus for stray blasts, dirty long range shots and the likes. So he's FFE and a couple of stray POW 10s? Not convinced that's worth the price of admission outside of siege 1
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Post by Aegis on Apr 22, 2018 0:50:20 GMT
Honestly, hot swapping FFE and getting +7 damage average (2d6) is enough of a buff. If you want to use him as a shooty solo too you can do it perfectly in HM siege 1. Upkeep FFE for ground pounder gaining loads of free boosts (or 2 focus as he usually needs to boost to hit and damage) and then shoot with him using snipe+repo3. 17 away from the enemy sounds usually pretty decent for safety. You also have 3 focus left, so you are either camping like a boss or boosting those pow 10 shots, provided yyou gave him a jack that doesn't want your focus (firefly, sentinel, hunter and ace all need nearly 0 focus from the caster). If you upkeep FFE on siege1 or a colossal/THead, then boost 2 shots you are still 17 inches away from the opponent camping 1 focus for stray blasts, dirty long range shots and the likes. So he's FFE and a couple of stray POW 10s? Not convinced that's worth the price of admission outside of siege 1 Its: - FFE (That even in the less synergistic models is like a double Empower that goes over the 3 focus limit and works on warrior models too). On the right piece, it is even way better than this, but this is the minimum output. - Possibility to bring bonded Ace, that means Magic Bullet and Shadow Fire even in HM where it wasn't available (I think Sloan would appreciate Shadow Fire a lot) - Possibility to do yo-yo tactics like with a Jack (Minuteman seems the best candidate). And either of this: - 2x RNG 14 POW 10+3d6 shots (Half the damage output of a B13 unit worth 10 points) - 2x Magic Bullets (so 4 hits per round, capable of halving an unit) - 2x Boostable Thunderbolts (If you can't see the value of Thunderbolts both for assassination and for clearing scenario zones, I don't know what to say, and HM hadn't access to those before) To me, it seems quite a good package of new options, expecially considering that Caine0 category is the same as Jakes1 and Trencher JR, that don't go even close to bring so much things to the table, and are still played. If you aren't able to make use of this package outside Siege1, I'm sorry for you. I think I'll enjoy it a lot. Anyway, noone forces you to play Caine0, and he is an extra model that most faction won't even get, so no harm done.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 22, 2018 2:16:00 GMT
So he's FFE and a couple of stray POW 10s? Not convinced that's worth the price of admission outside of siege 1 Its: - FFE (That even in the less synergistic models is like a double Empower that goes over the 3 focus limit and works on warrior models too). On the right piece, it is even way better than this, but this is the minimum output. - Possibility to bring bonded Ace, that means Magic Bullet and Shadow Fire even in HM where it wasn't available (I think Sloan would appreciate Shadow Fire a lot) - Possibility to do yo-yo tactics like with a Jack (Minuteman seems the best candidate). And either of this: - 2x RNG 14 POW 10+3d6 shots (Half the damage output of a B13 unit worth 10 points) - 2x Magic Bullets (so 4 hits per round, capable of halving an unit) - 2x Boostable Thunderbolts (If you can't see the value of Thunderbolts both for assassination and for clearing scenario zones, I don't know what to say, and HM hadn't access to those before) To me, it seems quite a good package of new options, expecially considering that Caine0 category is the same as Jakes1 and Trencher JR, that don't go even close to bring so much things to the table, and are still played. If you aren't able to make use of this package outside Siege1, I'm sorry for you. I think I'll enjoy it a lot. Anyway, noone forces you to play Caine0, and he is an extra model that most faction won't even get, so no harm done. FFE is extra focus, but a lot of targets really don't need the extra boosts. Its ok on Haley 2's Striders and Hurricanes, but not at all necessary due to the nature of those pieces. Ace is not a very good jack for his points. Thunderbolt and Trick Shot and Shadowfire are not things I want to pow 12 points for. Yo Yo tactics with a Jack seem niche at best and terrible at worst because you can't actually load that jack up without going empty with focus and using Arlan and only the extended CTRL area jacks will be in a place to come back to a reasonable spot where they dont get themselves, or Caine, killed. Minuteman shenanigans seems OK at best. You also get access to a number of things that won't happen because he doesn't have the focus for it. Don't assume that you can spirit door a minuteman and boost your shots. Those Magic Bullet shots are Rat 7's that don't see through any defensive tech, so which units are you killing? Thunderbolts are fine, many points for Thunderbolts which will die straight after aren't worth purchasing. Why rely on a crit knockdown which will push the model you are trying to kill away when you could use any of the Force Hammer casters or a Hurricane? Or just hitting because we are dogganm Cygnar and we don't need to knock someone down to kill them.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 22, 2018 2:47:19 GMT
Obviously you won't Spirit Door a Minuteman if you use Caine0 offensively (also because Caine0 needs to be in the "safe" spot for the Minuteman to land to).
That said, you know as well as me that you can upkeep FFE and still be able to boost or camp, and that seem quite a bit of value.
RAT 7 POW 10 actually sees through most units stats. You would kill Trenchers, Winter Guard, Banes, Stormblades and similar units without any problem at all, and if you are against very high DEF or ARM, you can boost and reliably kill even shield wall units in most cases (also remember that Magic Bullet uses the target as the source point of the attack, so if you shot one of the guys in the second line you can roll the Magic Bullet damage as backstrike, and so without Shield bonuses).
Thunderbolt is a little bit risky, yes, but if it wins you a game (like putting a model out of contesting zone) the safety of Caine0 the turn after becomes irrilevant. Also, in HM the target will be at 13+2d3 from Caine0 after 2 thunderbolts and reposition, so it isn't even sure that Caine would be in a risky position after (depends on the situation).
Using Force Hammer requires having a caster with that spell, and Hurricane is a freaking colossal. Having a source of pushes and KD in HM that isn't caster dependant and doesn't cost 39 points seems a good thing to me.
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