|
|
Post by oncomingstorm on Apr 8, 2018 18:23:29 GMT
It is a tad frustrating that I’ve only seen2 other battle reports that put Caine0 at Orange... Sevvy0 needed a nerf, but so does Caine. I’m still not sold that Boundless on a stick in Khador is not a concern. Why should I report that my powerful solo not green? Presumably because you give two shits about the integrity of the CID process, and aren't just in it to get buffs for your faction? I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but anyone who actually thinks like this should do us all a favor and gtfo the CID forums. |
|
|
|
Post by tapecrawler on Apr 9, 2018 0:28:30 GMT
This discussion makes me think of Kossites. I think they’re a good example of PP cutting chaff, they have rules and are in a theme but are so lousy as a unit that they are not really ever taken. So technically they are still playable but are only run by either casual gamers or competitive gamers that have a very specialized use for them.
|
|
Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850 
|
Post by Provengreil on Apr 9, 2018 3:22:53 GMT
This discussion makes me think of Kossites. I think they’re a good example of PP cutting chaff, they have rules and are in a theme but are so lousy as a unit that they are not really ever taken. So technically they are still playable but are only run by either casual gamers or competitive gamers that have a very specialized use for them. Deliverers make this argument less convincing. The old version needed that specific game plan (and what few forms of that existed died when the themes hit), but the new version will usually get their job done without babysitting in a faction often defined by models that don't do quite enough without receiving said babysitting. |
|
|
|
Post by Azuresun on Apr 9, 2018 7:11:09 GMT
It is a tad frustrating that I’ve only seen2 other battle reports that put Caine0 at Orange... Sevvy0 needed a nerf, but so does Caine. I’m still not sold that Boundless on a stick in Khador is not a concern. Why should I report that my powerful solo not green? After all, you need OP stuff to counter the OP stuff in other factions. Can't take the risk that they'll get their power up and you won't. |
|
zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
|
Post by zich on Apr 9, 2018 7:39:26 GMT
Why should I report that my powerful solo not green? After all, you need OP stuff to counter the OP stuff in other factions. Can't take the risk that they'll get their power up and you won't. In hindsight that is a pretty obvious result of reestablishing the average power level to a higher one than pre-CID. Can't blame PP for not seeing it coming though. They're game designers, not sociologists. |
|
|
|
Post by oncomingstorm on Apr 9, 2018 9:07:10 GMT
After all, you need OP stuff to counter the OP stuff in other factions. Can't take the risk that they'll get their power up and you won't. In hindsight that is a pretty obvious result of reestablishing the average power level to a higher one than pre-CID. Can't blame PP for not seeing it coming though. They're game designers, not sociologists. It would probably stop if they just...stopped putting obviously over the top models into CID. It's beta content, sure, but I feel like there have been a couple times where we've gotten alpha content instead. Eilish, the Suppression Tanker, these new journeymen...and then there's the shitstorm that happened when they took a good third of the BEs from never taken to OP. |
|
zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
|
Post by zich on Apr 9, 2018 9:49:36 GMT
That would probably not stop the lobbying. What would help is a general guide for expectations. What do PP consider balanced? What do they balance against?
To me for example a lot of the suggestions and requests in CID sound unreasonable. But I am still used to the pre-CID power level. This obviously impacts my judgement of post-CID models.
|
|
Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
|
Post by Ganso on Apr 9, 2018 15:33:07 GMT
That would probably not stop the lobbying. What would help is a general guide for expectations. What do PP consider balanced? What do they balance against? This is actually one of my major criticisms of CID, no objective baseline established to test against. Instead you get a bunch of "feels" and "perceptions" that you can't actually justify... Not to mention the testers that decide to dictate the WM/H Commandments of what can and can't be in the game to the devs themselves. |
|
crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
|
Post by crimsyn on Apr 9, 2018 15:42:25 GMT
This discussion makes me think of Kossites. I think they’re a good example of PP cutting chaff, they have rules and are in a theme but are so lousy as a unit that they are not really ever taken. So technically they are still playable but are only run by either casual gamers or competitive gamers that have a very specialized use for them. As an aside, while I may be a filthy casual, I have taken Kossites several times and think they (along with AKs, our other most-hated unit) are a great sideboard unit. I also don’t think I have ever not gotten my points worth out of them. Even if they don’t kill 7 points worth of stuff, the ability to use ambush to threaten vital support units is something the opponent has to think about, and even if they don’t kill anything, they can offer 7 points worth of value on scenario or distraction alone. |
|
crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
|
Post by crimsyn on Apr 9, 2018 15:45:27 GMT
That would probably not stop the lobbying. What would help is a general guide for expectations. What do PP consider balanced? What do they balance against? This is actually one of my major criticisms of CID, no objective baseline established to test against. Instead you get a bunch of "feels" and "perceptions" that you can't actually justify... Not to mention the testers that decide to dictate the WM/H Commandments of what can and can't be in the game to the devs themselves. I think this is doubly so when it comes to point values. For example, it may be clear if a unit is horribly broken or has rules interactions which just don’t work, but how can one truly tell whether a Juggernaut “feels” like it is worth 12 or 13 points? Particularly when the only actual effect of the change may be I find a point or two elsewhere in the list. Or even worse, nothing changes except my list goes from 74 to 75 points? |
|
|
|
Post by chillychinaman on Apr 9, 2018 16:47:00 GMT
This discussion makes me think of Kossites. I think they’re a good example of PP cutting chaff, they have rules and are in a theme but are so lousy as a unit that they are not really ever taken. So technically they are still playable but are only run by either casual gamers or competitive gamers that have a very specialized use for them. Deliverers make this argument less convincing. The old version needed that specific game plan (and what few forms of that existed died when the themes hit), but the new version will usually get their job done without babysitting in a faction often defined by models that don't do quite enough without receiving said babysitting. Good point. PP is perfectly CAPABLE of taking a unit that has been languishing for multiple editions and turn it into a decent, usable choice. And with themes, having units with overlapping roles becomes less of an issue as well. |
|
|
|
Post by Big Fat Troll on Apr 9, 2018 17:46:56 GMT
Why should I report that my powerful solo not green? After all, you need OP stuff to counter the OP stuff in other factions. Can't take the risk that they'll get their power up and you won't. Yeah, because that always ends well... |
|
|
|
Post by Azuresun on Apr 9, 2018 22:09:13 GMT
After all, you need OP stuff to counter the OP stuff in other factions. Can't take the risk that they'll get their power up and you won't. Yeah, because that always ends well... No, no, it's fine because (pick one): --PP Hates Us, and we never get good stuff. --We haven't won a big tournament for a while (What do you mean our faction won that one Masters?! That was just a fluke! More evidence needed!). --We need something to deal with one particular meta-warping list. --It's "core to our faction identity" in a vague way, so it's allowed to be OP. --You can deal with it perfectly easily if you specifically counter-build against it. Sheesh, whiners. |
|
spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
|
Post by spideredd on Apr 9, 2018 23:49:58 GMT
Yeah, because that always ends well... No, no, it's fine because (pick one): --PP Hates Us, and we never get good stuff. --We haven't won a big tournament for a while (What do you mean our faction won that one Masters?! That was just a fluke! More evidence needed!). --We need something to deal with one particular meta-warping list. --It's "core to our faction identity" in a vague way, so it's allowed to be OP. --You can deal with it perfectly easily if you specifically counter-build against it. Sheesh, whiners. You forgot "You just need better positioning" and of course, "Learn to play". |
|
|
|
Post by oncomingstorm on Apr 9, 2018 23:52:30 GMT
No, no, it's fine because (pick one): --PP Hates Us, and we never get good stuff. --We haven't won a big tournament for a while (What do you mean our faction won that one Masters?! That was just a fluke! More evidence needed!). --We need something to deal with one particular meta-warping list. --It's "core to our faction identity" in a vague way, so it's allowed to be OP. --You can deal with it perfectly easily if you specifically counter-build against it. Sheesh, whiners. You forgot "You just need better positioning" and of course, "Learn to play". It always cracked me up when someone suggested that I just 'learn to position all of my models so none of them are within 4" of each other" to play into Nemo3...with infantry, mind you, not just jacks/beasts. |
|
