Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557 
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Post by Hashmal on Apr 6, 2018 19:45:36 GMT
Limited format is accomplished with Champions, which I think is sufficient. It is pretty apparent that Champions is the format they want to stress more. However, a global limited format will not happen for the reasons HubertJFarnsworth highlighted above. Further, production costs for a card game versus a miniatures game are wildly different. It is easier for retailers to absorb the shock of editions phasing out of rotation and for the company to switch production gears. For PP, it would be much, much harder.
They'll probably continue to iterate on Champions, but I would not expect a more widespread limited format to ever happen.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Apr 6, 2018 19:55:10 GMT
It's not going to happen. Champions will be a limited format for those that want it (including myself) but they'd be shooting themselves in the foot if they started banning models from Steamroller or normal play. Not only so you have thousands of players who have put time and love into building and painting those models, but you have retailers still carrying potentially thousands of dollars of stock that becomes worthless overnight. They'd see retailers leaving in droves if they went any said "btw Stryker1 doesn't have rules anymore so any blisters or MkII battle boxes you have are worthless." They'll keep the rules, and they'll be find for pick up play, they just won't bother worrying about balancing new releases against things they have no intention of "letting into" Champions As an aside, notice that Nemo_3 is not part of the first season of the new Champs format? |
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Apr 6, 2018 19:59:35 GMT
I have a hypothesis based on obersvation that I can't really prove, but here me out here. For over a year now I've been harping on my hypothesis that PP is prepping the way for a wide spread Limited Format. The only other types of games I've played before with an actual Limited Format are Card Games, and much like Warmachine, Interactions and Synergies are pretty important there. When a Card Game is about to rotate out certain things, there are always very strong interactions between the newer releases and the Legacy options, and constantly there is this period of people playing in the sprinklers with their broken shit before the "problematic" legacy cards are rotated out. What if we are seeing the start of things that are ahead of the power curve but won't be once stuff gets phased out? Think about it 1.- Themes are the new norm 2.- PP started offering direct to dealer sales for legacy stuff 3.- 2018 Champion Format is limiting Themes 4.- 2019 Iron Gauntlet is a Champions Event 4.1.- PP is offering Free tickets to Lock and Load for Qualified players 4.2.- Everything qualifies you to IG now, and there is no cap on the amount of players that can get qualified 5.- 15 Anniversary Models that seem OP with 15 years of Legacy Releases 6.- Officially stop support for some legacy releases and maybe the 15 year models aren't so bad? tin foil level conspiracy right there  While I'm not saying you are wrong, that would be a fine way to absolutely kill the game. |
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Apr 6, 2018 20:05:50 GMT
While I'm not saying you are wrong, that would be a fine way to absolutely kill the game. I don't think it will. Cutting stuff from your SKU offering hasn't killed any other game ever. Not card games, not miniatures, not even RPGs. Granted, only miniature company that has ever practiced reducing their SKU by not bothering updating the rules has been GW, but, opinions about their game aside, doing so has not killed their games. |
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Apr 6, 2018 20:16:40 GMT
It's not going to happen. Champions will be a limited format for those that want it (including myself) but they'd be shooting themselves in the foot if they started banning models from Steamroller or normal play. Not only so you have thousands of players who have put time and love into building and painting those models, but you have retailers still carrying potentially thousands of dollars of stock that becomes worthless overnight. They'd see retailers leaving in droves if they went any said "btw Stryker1 doesn't have rules anymore so any blisters or MkII battle boxes you have are worthless." They'll keep the rules, and they'll be find for pick up play, they just won't bother worrying about balancing new releases against things they have no intention of "letting into" Champions As an aside, notice that Nemo_3 is not part of the first season of the new Champs format? Like all those people who still play MkII because they don't like MkIII? The Warmachine community at large tends to only worry about models and modes that are currently supported. Any declaration by PP that some models aren't considered up to date or official will cause those models to stop selling. |
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Apr 6, 2018 20:24:01 GMT
They'll keep the rules, and they'll be find for pick up play, they just won't bother worrying about balancing new releases against things they have no intention of "letting into" Champions As an aside, notice that Nemo_3 is not part of the first season of the new Champs format? Like all those people who still play MkII because they don't like MkIII? The Warmachine community at large tends to only worry about models and modes that are currently supported. Any declaration by PP that some models aren't considered up to date or official will cause those models to stop selling. That wouldn't be a bad thing if that is their intent: i.e. slim down their production, streamline their supply line, simplify game development. They don't have to "declare" it, they just have to remove them from Champions and not ever let them in. Once people stop buying them, PP will stop producing them, a de facto way of sunsetting their old junk they don't want to produce anymore (or that they don't want to bother worrying about). Like I said before, there is no way that PP can keep on adding SKUs to the game and have the game be balanced across the board. Even before balance considerations are an issue, the sheer fact that they will run out of Production Capacity is enough to make them want to cut stuff from their offerings. They will cut options sooner or later, either by not updating stuff in MkX or whatever, or by not letting them into their limited format. But first thing's first. Champions needs to be the preferred way for the competitive minded to play. |
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Apr 6, 2018 20:29:18 GMT
While I'm not saying you are wrong, that would be a fine way to absolutely kill the game. I don't think it will. Cutting stuff from your SKU offering hasn't killed any other game ever. Not card games, not miniatures, not even RPGs. Granted, only miniature company that has ever practiced reducing their SKU by not bothering updating the rules has been GW, but, opinions about their game aside, doing so has not killed their games. I would be cautious with that. GW did it at a time when no serious competition existed, it only applied to a limited model range, and it was such a reviled move that it is still talked about decades later. |
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Post by tesoe on Apr 6, 2018 21:10:55 GMT
There's also the fact that PP has sworn up and down many many many times they will never remove models from the game or invalidate purchases.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Apr 6, 2018 21:41:14 GMT
Like all those people who still play MkII because they don't like MkIII? The Warmachine community at large tends to only worry about models and modes that are currently supported. Any declaration by PP that some models aren't considered up to date or official will cause those models to stop selling. That wouldn't be a bad thing if that is their intent: i.e. slim down their production, streamline their supply line, simplify game development. They don't have to "declare" it, they just have to remove them from Champions and not ever let them in. Once people stop buying them, PP will stop producing them, a de facto way of sunsetting their old junk they don't want to produce anymore (or that they don't want to bother worrying about). Like I said before, there is no way that PP can keep on adding SKUs to the game and have the game be balanced across the board. Even before balance considerations are an issue, the sheer fact that they will run out of Production Capacity is enough to make them want to cut stuff from their offerings. They will cut options sooner or later, either by not updating stuff in MkX or whatever, or by not letting them into their limited format. But first thing's first. Champions needs to be the preferred way for the competitive minded to play. The last sentence is the problem. Every time PP has attempted to introduce a new preferred format it has failed. IG lasted a year as a unique format, Champions v1 lasted two. Champions v2 might break the cycle but it's far from a given. |
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Post by dogganmguest on Apr 6, 2018 22:43:04 GMT
There's also the fact that PP has sworn up and down many many many times they will never remove models from the game or invalidate purchases. They also swore up and down that there were no plans for a Mk3, and then they played word games with "new edition". Their up and down swearing doesn't count for shit. |
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Post by W0lfBane on Apr 6, 2018 23:43:12 GMT
Sevy 0 got a nerf
Can we also get a Nerf on the other egregious ones.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 8, 2018 12:36:16 GMT
Sevy 0 got a nerf Can we also get a Nerf on the other egregious ones. It is a tad frustrating that I’ve only seen2 other battle reports that put Caine0 at Orange... Sevvy0 needed a nerf, but so does Caine. I’m still not sold that Boundless on a stick in Khador is not a concern. |
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Post by Aegis on Apr 8, 2018 17:39:34 GMT
There's also the fact that PP has sworn up and down many many many times they will never remove models from the game or invalidate purchases. Many MK2 theme forces allowed for a FA bigger than normal on some models, and then removed them, leaving people with models they can't use in any way. Same happened to things like Shifting stones getting lowered FA, and invalidating the purchases for the 3 unit that can't be played anymore. They also sworn that they weren't doing MK3, and since they tested "Egg Roll" "For years internally" they swore it while already preparing MK3 (so knowing that was a lie). At the beginning of Warmachine, they swore that this was a "Metal-only" game, and that they would never make plastic miniatures... Start to see a trend? PP word on something doesn't have any value. I don't know if they'll ever put miniatures out of the game, but for sure the deciding factor won't be if they swore it or not, but just how they feel in that that moment. |
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Post by beardmonk on Apr 8, 2018 17:50:29 GMT
If they started limiting or cycling models in Champions, given its already a limited format, i wouldn't be that bothered as I never play Champions. However if they applied that to standard SR competitions/formats, it would cause the total collapse of the game i think.
The last Chain Attack podcast where they discussed many of these issues was very interesting. I agree with them that there is a red line they should not cross and that line is removing models from the standard game.
What PP needs to do is finish updating all the old models. Rather than being several years after the launch of MK3 and having factions with large swathes of under powered models that have yet to put through CID
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Post by Gaston on Apr 8, 2018 18:15:49 GMT
Sevy 0 got a nerf Can we also get a Nerf on the other egregious ones. It is a tad frustrating that I’ve only seen2 other battle reports that put Caine0 at Orange... Sevvy0 needed a nerf, but so does Caine. I’m still not sold that Boundless on a stick in Khador is not a concern. Why should I report that my powerful solo not green? |
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