|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 6, 2018 15:49:58 GMT
i agree it was a bad example. but there are other things he could give snipe to that could also, presumably have magesight? or am i wrong again? We are not trying to attack you personally. (at least I'm not) We want to be reasonable. Yes Denny would be bad if you could shoot her off the board from 27" away like you say. But currently that is not possible. So, yes it's a bad example to use a SS, but it's also unrealistic without super specific tech/models. So saying Denny is bad because of [impossible scenario] means she's not in fact that bad. At least not in that respect. Triumph is the only Cygnar jack I know of with true sight. Kara has it and can hand it out as field marshal. So yes, Kara can shoot Denny off the table. |
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 6, 2018 15:55:41 GMT
That does not work the way you think it does. Sevy0 cannot take BoM in theme, so you are exclusively playing out of theme St that point. I think most would accept that as a reasonable trade off for the power level of the interactions these Journeymen bring (and restricting them from themes has already been suggested as a balance metric). Sevy0 also would lose Blood's Bond, which is pretty good. And Blood does not have Parry, so you Side Step until you are engaged by something meaningful. Finally, if you get Blood back on Thyra, you lose Road to War. Not really seeing where it's dumb. You gain 1" of threat on Blood out of theme, which is subject to melee engagement and free strikes. I've already specified I know it's out of theme. I accept that prospect. I'm not just gaining +1". I'm gaining +1/+1 on every model in 10" of Sevy 0. I'm freeing up Thyra to not have to dedicated ANY focus to BoM. On a caster with Stranglehold that is a BIG deal. As it stands, I've not gotten to use Stranglehold due to needing to feed BoM and other jacks. I'm also gaining freedom of movement for Thyra. Such a powerful melee caster with acrobatics and the safety of Gate's placement means she can do a lot more without having to baby sit 3 Jacks (what I usually run with her is BoM and 2 Sanctifiers). It's not just about what Sevy brings on his card. It's the burden he takes off the main caster as well. Now, again this is not going to be the case everywhere. Thyra is one of the few with a all-affecting feat and spell list. Battlegroup only is very prevalent in PoM. |
|
Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557 
|
Post by Hashmal on Apr 6, 2018 16:03:16 GMT
The focus efficiency can already be replicated with two Vassals (who incidentally cost as much as Sevy0), so personally I don't view that as a gain. What is a gain is the +1/+1 for sure.
Not saying that there isn't an extremely powerful interaction, or that there isn't even a broken one. All I'm saying is test it. I want to see it broken. There have been some things where I've had a pretty hard knee-jerk reaction (Caine3) that when I actually saw on the table I realized weren't near as bad as feared.
I personally think that Road to War advancing sac moving Redeemers is going to be stonking good, to the point that it might need to be scaled back. I intend to test that theory. Similarly with Repenters and Reznik2 (RAT 8 baby!) now that we have another week to test.
|
|
|
|
Post by darkshroud on Apr 6, 2018 16:55:03 GMT
]We are not trying to attack you personally. (at least I'm not) We want to be reasonable. i know. i was being obnoxious and knee jerk-y. i didnt take anyones response to me as an attack at me. so real talk. the arc node needs to be within 8 of her and 8 of the target, if i remember. so, yes, shell get one off. but the arc node is probably dead. which mean next turn, if she needs to re-apply it, shell need to be within 8. which is rather dangerous. one could argue she could just run up and shadowbind people. but i feel like thats an expensive action. but if it keeps dudes out of a zone for a turn and you win, it was worth it, right? (shrug) im just not sold yet i guess but...if you put her with a caster the buffs instead of debuffs, like skarre, that could be huge. meh |
|
|
|
Post by tesoe on Apr 6, 2018 18:03:12 GMT
If you watch the dev talk video on YouTube it's pretty clear they expect her to cast parasite once and then die to the retaliation. And that be her entire impact on the game.
|
|
zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
|
Post by zich on Apr 6, 2018 18:05:21 GMT
If you watch the dev talk video on YouTube it's pretty clear they expect her to cast parasite once and then die to the retaliation. And that be her entire impact on the game. Truly how tales of legend start. She's probably fine balance-wise, but that sounds a bit weird. |
|
|
|
Post by tesoe on Apr 6, 2018 18:11:52 GMT
If you watch the dev talk video on YouTube it's pretty clear they expect her to cast parasite once and then die to the retaliation. And that be her entire impact on the game. Truly how tales of legend start. She's probably fine balance-wise, but that sounds a bit weird. I mean they bring it up three or four times in the time they spend talking about her. |
|
|
|
Post by greenjello on Apr 6, 2018 18:14:08 GMT
I know this sentiment has been stated before, but I think it is worth repeating. PP has a history of being unable/unwilling to identify/admit what is making a model too good, and instead nerf things that are not the problem. They have a long history of making gradual changes, rather than nerfing a model into the ground. MKII there were non-stop complaints about Gaspy2, so they gradually changed his feat 3 times, since that seemed to be generating most of the hate. Going too far is worse than going not quite far enough. |
|
|
|
Post by darkshroud on Apr 6, 2018 18:35:46 GMT
I know this sentiment has been stated before, but I think it is worth repeating. PP has a history of being unable/unwilling to identify/admit what is making a model too good, and instead nerf things that are not the problem. They have a long history of making gradual changes, rather than nerfing a model into the ground. MKII there were non-stop complaints about Gaspy2, so they gradually changed his feat 3 times, since that seemed to be generating most of the hate. Going too far is worse than going not quite far enough. wow that was a bad example. gaspy2 got legit destroyed on the mk3 transition. that would be the exact definition of "nerfed to the ground" |
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 6, 2018 18:42:29 GMT
I know this sentiment has been stated before, but I think it is worth repeating. PP has a history of being unable/unwilling to identify/admit what is making a model too good, and instead nerf things that are not the problem. They have a long history of making gradual changes, rather than nerfing a model into the ground. MKII there were non-stop complaints about Gaspy2, so they gradually changed his feat 3 times, since that seemed to be generating most of the hate. Going too far is worse than going not quite far enough. Yeah, gradual changes that dance around the actual issue, and then having to address that issue anyway in the end Edit, Mad Dogs... |
|
Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
|
Post by Ganso on Apr 6, 2018 18:51:26 GMT
I have a hypothesis based on obersvation that I can't really prove, but here me out here. For over a year now I've been harping on my hypothesis that PP is prepping the way for a wide spread Limited Format. The only other types of games I've played before with an actual Limited Format are Card Games, and much like Warmachine, Interactions and Synergies are pretty important there. When a Card Game is about to rotate out certain things, there are always very strong interactions between the newer releases and the Legacy options, and constantly there is this period of people playing in the sprinklers with their broken shit before the "problematic" legacy cards are rotated out. What if we are seeing the start of things that are ahead of the power curve but won't be once stuff gets phased out? Think about it 1.- Themes are the new norm 2.- PP started offering direct to dealer sales for legacy stuff 3.- 2018 Champion Format is limiting Themes 4.- 2019 Iron Gauntlet is a Champions Event 4.1.- PP is offering Free tickets to Lock and Load for Qualified players 4.2.- Everything qualifies you to IG now, and there is no cap on the amount of players that can get qualified 5.- 15 Anniversary Models that seem OP with 15 years of Legacy Releases 6.- Officially stop support for some legacy releases and maybe the 15 year models aren't so bad? tin foil level conspiracy right there  |
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 6, 2018 18:57:39 GMT
Ganso that's pretty woke!
|
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 6, 2018 19:08:41 GMT
o.0?
I find that hard to accept but not out of the realm of possibility. But how would they really phase out models?
Could they say "Nope, no more [castername] 1 and 2. You have to play 3 because that's the highest iteration and thus current to the fluff" So Denny/Haley 1 and 2 for example can be as problematic as they like and never affect tournaments as they would essentially be on a "ban list".
Again I can't say I like it but with the sheer volume of models they are flooding the game with it's not impossible.
|
|
|
|
Post by tesoe on Apr 6, 2018 19:31:14 GMT
o.0? I find that hard to accept but not out of the realm of possibility. But how would they really phase out models? Could they say "Nope, no more [castername] 1 and 2. You have to play 3 because that's the highest iteration and thus current to the fluff" So Denny/Haley 1 and 2 for example can be as problematic as they like and never affect tournaments as they would essentially be on a "ban list". Again I can't say I like it but with the sheer volume of models they are flooding the game with it's not impossible. The could stop including rules for them in the new codexes. |
|
|
|
Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Apr 6, 2018 19:38:19 GMT
It's not going to happen. Champions will be a limited format for those that want it (including myself) but they'd be shooting themselves in the foot if they started banning models from Steamroller or normal play. Not only so you have thousands of players who have put time and love into building and painting those models, but you have retailers still carrying potentially thousands of dollars of stock that becomes worthless overnight. They'd see retailers leaving in droves if they went any said "btw Stryker1 doesn't have rules anymore so any blisters or MkII battle boxes you have are worthless."
|
|
