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Post by sand20go on Mar 24, 2017 16:12:37 GMT
So I continue to struggle a bit (that might be an understatement) with a second list. I REALLY like (as in I don't see changing) my Butcher 3 Voltron List (essentially butcher with a ton of support) with the POSSIBLE exception of dropping Kell and adding a Second bokur because shield guards are great.
But I have tried Hark with lots of Jacks - covers too many of the same match ups as above and doesn't help with others Irusk2 with Horses - as noted below; not enough volume of attacks Vlad1 with Conquest - ditto
In MY meta the issue is dude spam form Menoth (and I believe soon Denny and the Ghost Boat). I have seen Menoth dude spam with Reclaimers 1 and 2 and Harby. You simply need more volume than Butcher 3 can reasonably put out - or at least he is pretty exposed; spikes happen; and with the low model count they may just look to remove Butcher3's entire army)
So right now thinking if you can't gun line as is....gun line harder.
Thoughts? This would be a menoth and Cryx drop. Butcher would cover nearly everything else.
S1 Reinholdt (destealthing denny and anything else that relies on that mechanic. Plus Lucky charming her damage or reloading for the hand cannon caster kill run) Destroyer (pop and drop) Beast 09 (some armor cracking if I need it. Plus shield guard) Joe WGIRC + 3 rockets (because) AK (min)+ 2 flamethrowers (for the Harby match up as well as dug in Iridians). Plus they work great against Harby (shut down Martyr since that mechanic involves removing damage) and Errants self sacrifice (again, removing damage). Widowmakers (not sure here. Maybe overkill but can help with, for example, Battle Driven Exemplars so I can start putting damage on them. Or toughed Errants....but also the Book - which can help ensure with a gas cloud that it goes away so I can start throwing around Freezing Grip. A&H + valachev (a tough to swallow 12 point magic tax but it seems smart so I can give magic weapons to, for example, the WGIRC and then remove blackbanes with prejudice at range....or put in big gun shots into Menoth if, for example, in response to the presence of this gun line he drops Sevy with 2 Redeemeers and Reckoners and I need to starting wacking out things at range.
Thoughts? Do you like this as a Gunline and what holes do you see in respect to it paired with Butcher3
(for reference that list right now, prior to possible kell swap is)
Butcher 3 2 Kodiaks Ruin Devestator Maddy
Kell WMM Widows Eliminators Bokur Ragman Orin
PS. I do realize that there are some issues here with a cloud/forest line. I think the match up with Wormwood/Circle isn't GREAT but perhaps post Una2 nerf we are going to see a bit less of the circle control game on the tables.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Mar 24, 2017 17:49:31 GMT
The best way to gunline harder in Khador currently is going WG theme, but it's not an answer to either Cryx or Menoth in general. Cryx has Coven, Menoth has Passage jack spam to counter a gunline.
The best unit against Cryx is Outriders, preferably with s&p or hof,counters all their anti-shooting counters.
S1 or S2 based on shooting will crush Reclaimer but as said above they have big problems against their jacks lists untill Forge Seer is released, only A&H is not enough.
I think our best "answer" list when no clear counter is available is stock Vlad2+Conquest/Behemoth, WGRC, Mows/Uhlans. It can melee well, shoot well and has about a unit worth of points to customize by taking Orin, A&H or Outriders or Kommandos or whatever else you need against your meta.
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Post by warriorofiron on Mar 24, 2017 18:40:04 GMT
I'm really enjoying dude spam with conquest under irusk 2 I know you gave him a try but I dont currently use calv in that list so maybe tweak it a bit and it seems to fit well with my B3 list!
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Post by khadorjack on Mar 24, 2017 19:22:46 GMT
I'm used to pair B3 with Irusk2 WGI theme, you have a really high volume of attacks and still 4 heavies. BUT you struggle with magical attacks, so is not ok against cryx and some menoth i think?
I've tried to exchange B3 for Karchev but i'm not convinced at all. However, my B3 list have some magical weapons (as yours have): butcher itself, Orin, ruin, kell.
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145
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Post by kuarnix on Mar 25, 2017 1:20:07 GMT
If it's dude spam you're worried about, why not Zerkova2 with Outriders etc etc? You can still threaten assassination, as well as really obliterate units.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 25, 2017 4:05:41 GMT
I think the problem with Zerkova and Ponies is Harby. Yes. You can force a TON of Martydoms...and then she uses the weaponmasters to wreck face if you haven't killed off enough....
Or she brings the book and keeps THAT alive for as long as it takes to shut down spells within 10 inch bubble of it.
It isn't an autolose but I think it feels problematic.
Or, similarly, Reclaimer 2 just lets you kill a ton of errants - self sacrificing where need be, and then uses the remainer to wreck face and bring back 1/2 of what you killed.
It feels like I need to be sure to have SOME sort of anti recursion (AKs) and some crowd control (s1's feat) because of just how much even a single knights exemplar can do.
Plus Reclaimer 2 can weather it out, hold back a model and then pogo forward feat and go kill Z.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 25, 2017 7:12:50 GMT
If recursion is a problem, how about S2 for Shatterstorm? Maybe bring some MOW or Uhlans to leverage Iron Flesh?
BTW if you're only bringing A&H for magic weapons, do you really need Valachev anymore? 8 points then is not so bad considering Holt can do some work.
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Post by khadorjack on Mar 25, 2017 8:06:40 GMT
Yesterday night i thought about the broblem of magical weapons and i thought about this list
Jaws of the butcher
Butcher3 Ruin Kodiak Kodiak Rager
Forge seer (free) Behemoth
Forge seer (free)
widomakers eliminators eliminators Marksman (free)
You have many boxes to deal with, magic weapons on the butcher, ruin, behemoth and the seers. You have armor cracking, you can dispel upkeeps and you can nagate spells when Ruin starts to kill people. You have the snipers for precision job, and the annoying eliminators.
Main prblem it could be not optimal into cygnar, taht i cannot cover with my Irusk2 pairing.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Mar 25, 2017 9:31:06 GMT
First off, I think Soul Samurai is right about A&H. The extra 4 points for Val is not needed if what you're really lacking is Magic Weapon. Without Valchev if you can find one more point, you can also get Kell for more Magic shooting. I have not played into Ghost Boat yet, but my melee based Sorsch1 list with lots of Doomreavers I think solves the Magic Weapon dilemma, also makes it hard for stinking Cryx because of all the Spell Ward. Anyway, just some thoughts.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 25, 2017 15:05:25 GMT
If recursion is a problem, how about S2 for Shatterstorm? Maybe bring some MOW or Uhlans to leverage Iron Flesh? BTW if you're only bringing A&H for magic weapons, do you really need Valachev anymore? 8 points then is not so bad considering Holt can do some work. Good obseravation. Need to think about how that would allow for a bit more "umph" in the S1 list. I will try to get 2-3 games in with it today and report back if people are interested. I played her a decent amount in MK2.....and I really think her power went up in ways people don't appreciate with the "neft" to slamming your own models. DEF 18 is no joke, even if she is squishy because a sorscha with a single box left is a sorscha fully capable of killing a caster from a ridiculously far distance away. (I didn't go with S2 because of the loss of Freezing Grip. S1 is just much better able to control the battlefied and "defeat in detail". Plus shatterstorm gets strange with Errants - allowing some self sacrifice jank to avoid RFP (though in the case of reclaimer you do keep him from collecting souls which is HUGE)
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Post by sand20go on Mar 26, 2017 6:42:40 GMT
Well that didn't work. Now admittedly it was the "wrong" match up but couldn't crack (enough) armor into Menoth. Lost to both Amon jack wall (couldn't get the angle to pull off a tempest/feat with the f'ing book still alive) as well as a Kreoss 1 jack gun line (better but just could weather out the storm.
Then to really put f;ing icing on the cake I got Butcher 3 killed by Caine 3 who is a royal pain in the neck.
Yes, I am getting frustrated by the game again - powerful gun lines are crappy for us.
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Post by Netherby on Mar 26, 2017 9:12:05 GMT
I don't know about S1/2 vs Menoth. I find the book a royal pain to remove (basically impossible vs Harby), and it completely shuts her down while its up. Though Shatter Storm is probably our best anti-recursion available?
If you're taking A&H, I think it's worth including Valachev even if the main reason is magical weapons. You still want to shoot with Holt and Kiss is still really good. Zypher helps keep the unit alive.
Any way, it would be fine against Cryx but I just don't see it working into Menoth because removing the book is just not something you can count on being able to do. I think you should instead look at an Old Witch gun line.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Mar 26, 2017 13:04:31 GMT
Sorry for the rough games sand20go. What list did you run into the Menoth player? I really hate Menoth now, I really hated them before too, but I think the range of their ability to shut stuff down is bit too long. I have another report to post up soon against a Kreoss1 gun line, which I lost as well, but I think it was more because of some bad moves and being too aggressive when not needed. Despite my hate of them, I feel like once I've gotten my feet wet against a particular list and experienced their "gotcha" move, that they ultimately don't have much else they can do to me next time. The problem is I keep facing different Menoth lists and have to stumble through their "gotchas" one at a time. Even with this going on, I think a bit smarter playing would have made the difference. Anyway, the roundabout point I'm trying to make is that straightforward play from Khador will win out against gimmicky play from other factions. Keep up the good fight!
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Post by sand20go on Mar 26, 2017 14:20:27 GMT
Sorry for the rough games sand20go . What list did you run into the Menoth player? I really hate Menoth now, I really hated them before too, but I think the range of their ability to shut stuff down is bit too long. I have another report to post up soon against a Kreoss1 gun line, which I lost as well, but I think it was more because of some bad moves and being too aggressive when not needed. Despite my hate of them, I feel like once I've gotten my feet wet against a particular list and experienced their "gotcha" move, that they ultimately don't have much else they can do to me next time. The problem is I keep facing different Menoth lists and have to stumble through their "gotchas" one at a time. Even with this going on, I think a bit smarter playing would have made the difference. Anyway, the roundabout point I'm trying to make is that straightforward play from Khador will win out against gimmicky play from other factions. Keep up the good fight! I posted the S1 list above. It would be really strong (80/20?) into dude spam Menoth. It was poor into Jack spam menoth - it doesn't have the hitting power to kill off stuff fast enough. I hope to get a game in today (or later this week). May try either Vlad or Irusk2 in WGI. May also go back to good old Sorsha.....with some spaming of BC and the feat she can wreck many a thing.
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145
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Post by kuarnix on Mar 27, 2017 1:31:35 GMT
Yeah unfortunately I can't play enough these days to really have a good handle of what's going on in the game outside of theory-machine. But it basically sounds like you need a shooting-resistant infantry spam clearer. At least the plus side of S2 is that you can still crack armor, with the feat.
I think you also have to figure out how critical RFP is to you, or if you can play around it.
Have you considered Vlad3, perhaps?
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