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Post by Voodoogk on Mar 28, 2017 0:29:18 GMT
I think that if you build Butcher3 (or others) as "armor crackers" what Andy may give you is the list to drop into high powered range (and/or lists where spell hate is a real problem) Innate sack pawn so you don't have to bring "die to breeze" WG. (Why oh Why did we lose bob and weave). As you note, being able to MOVE THROUGH models with Veil to render melee attacks largely irrelevant is, well, HUGE. But so too, it seems to me, to be able to use it defensively. Hit me with a damaging shot, I advance 4 inches...and keep doing it over and over again. Given those parameters I'd argue that Z1 is better at the job than Malakov. Essentially his feat means they wont shoot your jacks on Malakovs feat.. thats also what Z's feat does, on top of making your opponent hate life. She's also far better against spells than he is, and doesn't really care that much about spell hate. She can make a cloud wall for things that cant see through clouds. Also if you're getting gunned down from across the table by cygnar, you need more forests/buildings on your tables. Regulation these days is around 8 pieces of terrain, 2 of those should be relevant and able to block los even to true sight. more than half the time you should have a big los blocker in the middle of the table. If you're losing to extreme range lists because they're hammering you down all the way from turn one every game, your board is probably not set up right. Strakh could also work, by just denying them a turn due to the speed at which he gets to the fight. Edit: Curious.. have you tried strakhov with a jack spam list yet? I feel like its a real hard list for anything in cygnar outside haley3. Dont get too clever just put in a lot of jacks and have them in melee with your enemy right away. Think fast harkevich, not assassinatey.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 28, 2017 21:35:59 GMT
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Post by Voodoogk on Mar 28, 2017 22:02:28 GMT
Sure.. its a white space. I use those at the end of my posts to indicate I'm done.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 28, 2017 22:14:59 GMT
I think that if you build Butcher3 (or others) as "armor crackers" what Andy may give you is the list to drop into high powered range (and/or lists where spell hate is a real problem) Innate sack pawn so you don't have to bring "die to breeze" WG. (Why oh Why did we lose bob and weave). As you note, being able to MOVE THROUGH models with Veil to render melee attacks largely irrelevant is, well, HUGE. But so too, it seems to me, to be able to use it defensively. Hit me with a damaging shot, I advance 4 inches...and keep doing it over and over again. Given those parameters I'd argue that Z1 is better at the job than Malakov. Essentially his feat means they wont shoot your jacks on Malakovs feat.. thats also what Z's feat does, on top of making your opponent hate life. She's also far better against spells than he is, and doesn't really care that much about spell hate. She can make a cloud wall for things that cant see through clouds. Also if you're getting gunned down from across the table by cygnar, you need more forests/buildings on your tables. Regulation these days is around 8 pieces of terrain, 2 of those should be relevant and able to block los even to true sight. more than half the time you should have a big los blocker in the middle of the table. If you're losing to extreme range lists because they're hammering you down all the way from turn one every game, your board is probably not set up right. Strakh could also work, by just denying them a turn due to the speed at which he gets to the fight. Edit: Curious.. have you tried strakhov with a jack spam list yet? I feel like its a real hard list for anything in cygnar outside haley3. Dont get too clever just put in a lot of jacks and have them in melee with your enemy right away. Think fast harkevich, not assassinatey. I haven't. I think <Hangs head in shame for net listing> i am going to steal a list from Cpt. of Caspia and run Vlad 1 with 3 min units of Rifles with Max Rockets and then 5 jacks (2 Juggers, 3 Mauraders). It really is an "A tier" list - boring as hell to play but my god it does what I want - volume of attacks. It doesn't suffer from the S1 problem of "low hitting power and should pretty easily get the "alpha" because of Vlad's feat. I _MAY_ go with "just" 4 juggers - or even upgrade to something like 2 Juggers; Ruin and then something else. Seems a near hard counter to both of the Menoth lists that spam weaponmasters, should be able to at least hurt Amon's Jack line enough to force him to "open up" the jacks to shooting by forcing the song of Battle and then pairs up with by b3 list.
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Post by Voodoogk on Mar 28, 2017 22:24:17 GMT
Vlad1's shooting game is the bizness. Make sure you don't ignore the gun carriage with him. My personal favorite module with him is Andrei with a grolar, he usually doesn't need to boost to hit with SNP so you can use that gun as boosted pow 12's under snp.. which is a TON of damage, I've done in half a clam in a round.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 28, 2017 22:32:43 GMT
Sure.. its a white space. I use those at the end of my posts to indicate I'm done. Grr...new interface. I meant to quote the section where you said that Strakhov is a good drop into Cygnar, and wanted to ask how/why and what the gameplan was in your view.
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Post by Voodoogk on Mar 28, 2017 23:16:01 GMT
Grr...new interface. I meant to quote the section where you said that Strakhov is a good drop into Cygnar, and wanted to ask how/why and what the gameplan was in your view. Sure, mind you I was asking if he had tried it because you and your "O"ther friend are really the only decent Cygnar players I ever get to play. So to get real world confirmation I kinda have to have sand try it. But it seems to me the thing you want to mitigate as quickly as possible with cygnar is that ability to work comfortably at 14-15" out. Hark tends to get there with the armor feat, but in this case strakhov almost works like an offensive control feat, khador style. He denies you a round of shooting, he puts heavies into your guns, and he gets a free charge to boot. Screen isn't something you always see with cygnar, but if that exists there is always over run. Additionally most of the jacks are actually going to get to attack, so you get to do serious damage to the ones that don't mind being tied up, like hunters. Being in melee is khadors best defense to being shot. seems like good stuff in general. You should bring ruin as well, since he ruins cygnars plans a lot of times (har har). Overrun seems particularly bad for cavalry which seems to be popular from what I've been hearing. Once you're already in melee with your enemy the control spells have a lot harder of a time being effective, getting turned around usually means you can just walk and do something, or go after something else important. Also its jack spam so e leaps are getting little to nothing done. Theres always disruption, but even disrupted pow 19s are bad, and if they were in melee at the time you sometimes risk disrupting yourself. On top of that you get to have your jacks on your opponents side of the zones, so its not bad scenario wise either. And there's always the well known heaven piercing spear if all else fails. Clearly these are all just tools.. tools that I personally don't use very often. But I intend to, and they seem decent enough.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 28, 2017 23:41:12 GMT
Grr...new interface. I meant to quote the section where you said that Strakhov is a good drop into Cygnar, and wanted to ask how/why and what the gameplan was in your view. Sure, mind you I was asking if he had tried it because you and your "O"ther friend are really the only decent Cygnar players I ever get to play. So to get real world confirmation I kinda have to have sand try it. But it seems to me the thing you want to mitigate as quickly as possible with cygnar is that ability to work comfortably at 14-15" out. Hark tends to get there with the armor feat, but in this case strakhov almost works like an offensive control feat, khador style. He denies you a round of shooting, he puts heavies into your guns, and he gets a free charge to boot. Screen isn't something you always see with cygnar, but if that exists there is always over run. Additionally most of the jacks are actually going to get to attack, so you get to do serious damage to the ones that don't mind being tied up, like hunters. Being in melee is khadors best defense to being shot. seems like good stuff in general. You should bring ruin as well, since he ruins cygnars plans a lot of times (har har). Overrun seems particularly bad for cavalry which seems to be popular from what I've been hearing. Once you're already in melee with your enemy the control spells have a lot harder of a time being effective, getting turned around usually means you can just walk and do something, or go after something else important. Also its jack spam so e leaps are getting little to nothing done. Theres always disruption, but even disrupted pow 19s are bad, and if they were in melee at the time you sometimes risk disrupting yourself. On top of that you get to have your jacks on your opponents side of the zones, so its not bad scenario wise either. And there's always the well known heaven piercing spear if all else fails. Clearly these are all just tools.. tools that I personally don't use very often. But I intend to, and they seem decent enough. OK. I am willing to try but struggling here. Why wouldn't I just SPAM the shit out of Juggers/Maurders and run them with Vlad1? Feat and run a few of them to tie up jacks with a second wave ready to go to town the turn after. Or if Jacks are too expensive do it with Doomies as the second wave? And BTW - it isn't a half bad strategy into range heavy Cygnar I can't remember Juris's full Nemo three list but it has I think Junior 4 Fireflies and Dynamo (maybe a Stormclad? Maybe Thunderhear?) Dynamo fully able to go eat a jack on his own. Ditto Stormclad. but the Fireflies are going to struggle unless they move out of combat. You can spam 4 Juggers, 2 Mauraders and 2 units of Doomies with 9 points left. Lets send Maurders into Dynamo and Stormclad. 2 Juggers look to tie up AT LEAST 2 Fireflies. Doomies spread out - trying to minimize the leaps. 2 Juggers hang back to get into Dynamo and Other main Jack subsequent turn. Problem I see with Stark 1 is that he gets the charge off (probably) but then is simply WAY too close. Feels like a double boosted feated lighten zap from Nemo makes him a very sad puppy. He is probably stealthed but even then - just run a firefly near him and start zapping it in the back for boosted 12s.
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Post by Voodoogk on Mar 29, 2017 0:06:43 GMT
Strakh runs more jacks effectively due to his resourceful rule. When he casts snp, vlad only has 3 focus. He's actually pretty strapped. His feat does not give pathfinder... a notable difference for getting there at times. They are the same defensive stats, but generally strakh can camp better (again due to resourceful). If you're worried about being exposed on feat turn you can always cast overrun for strakhov and move him back on the last jacks activation. Basically he can always be at most 2" closer than vlad has to be to keep your jacks in control. If you're worried about eleaps I'd also make sure he's hiding behind a clam that is b2b with a flag.. he's only gonna get hit 1 time out of 3. He can also run doom reavers if you like, except unlike vlad, his doom reavers benefit from his feat as well. One unit of reach troops is not a bad idea though. I prefer the kind with shields but do whatever you want. They all threat 15 on the feat turn so they're all great. Their chances of getting shot first are minimal with 15" threat.
I think for what you are intending, strakh is better than vlad1.. it seems at first glance that vlad1 can do everything but really he casts snp and fuels one jack a turn and prays nobody kills him. This is no slight on the dark prince though, when the enemy can't counter straight shooting he may be the best caster we have.
I like him personally with double carriage, demolisher Andrei/grolar field gun mortar mortar, min wgi+3rockets... it will shoot the world to death. But he has his problems.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Mar 29, 2017 2:51:46 GMT
I like Vlad 1 with a ton of Rockets. I do like fitting in 2 Destroyers for the Bombards which ignore LOS. My last game, I was able to clear most of the choir out with blast damage. I think 4 jacks with 2 Destroyers might serve you better than spamming a 5th jack. If you're worried about dedicated armor cracking, you're probably dropping Butcher 3 anyway.
Also, for those of you suggesting to not take Valachev with A&H, I think you're underappreciating the value of -2 ARM. Really. Also, most of our casters have spells or feats that only effect friendly faction which can be gold on A&H.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Mar 29, 2017 3:05:33 GMT
For what it's worth, Strakhov_1 also has a legit assassination through overrun, without needing to allocate anything to the assassin jack thanks to Forge Seers (may or may not apply to the Cygnar match )
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 29, 2017 18:41:45 GMT
Grr...new interface. I meant to quote the section where you said that Strakhov is a good drop into Cygnar, and wanted to ask how/why and what the gameplan was in your view. Sure, mind you I was asking if he had tried it because you and your "O"ther friend are really the only decent Cygnar players I ever get to play. So to get real world confirmation I kinda have to have sand try it. But it seems to me the thing you want to mitigate as quickly as possible with cygnar is that ability to work comfortably at 14-15" out. Hark tends to get there with the armor feat, but in this case strakhov almost works like an offensive control feat, khador style. He denies you a round of shooting, he puts heavies into your guns, and he gets a free charge to boot. Screen isn't something you always see with cygnar, but if that exists there is always over run. Additionally most of the jacks are actually going to get to attack, so you get to do serious damage to the ones that don't mind being tied up, like hunters. Being in melee is khadors best defense to being shot. seems like good stuff in general. You should bring ruin as well, since he ruins cygnars plans a lot of times (har har). Overrun seems particularly bad for cavalry which seems to be popular from what I've been hearing. Once you're already in melee with your enemy the control spells have a lot harder of a time being effective, getting turned around usually means you can just walk and do something, or go after something else important. Also its jack spam so e leaps are getting little to nothing done. Theres always disruption, but even disrupted pow 19s are bad, and if they were in melee at the time you sometimes risk disrupting yourself. On top of that you get to have your jacks on your opponents side of the zones, so its not bad scenario wise either. And there's always the well known heaven piercing spear if all else fails. Clearly these are all just tools.. tools that I personally don't use very often. But I intend to, and they seem decent enough. What I'm struggling to understand is what Strakhov does to deny a round of shooting and/or speed up his warjacks? Overrun is great if you can trigger it, for a couple of models, and superiority buffs speed for a warjack, but what else does he do? I just don't see any obvious strengths for the Cygnar matchup.
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Post by Voodoogk on Mar 29, 2017 19:47:32 GMT
His feat gives his army a 4" speed buff while charging models in his command, pathfinder and a free charge. ruin threats 15" the rest threat 12", more with overrun. doomies threat 15". It should basically skip through one round of shooting when executed properly. I wonder why you ask this though.. did you not know what his feat was?
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Post by sand20go on Mar 29, 2017 21:28:22 GMT
His feat gives his army a 4" speed buff while charging models in his command, pathfinder and a free charge. ruin threats 15" the rest threat 12", more with overrun. doomies threat 15". It should basically skip through one round of shooting when executed properly. I wonder why you ask this though.. did you not know what his feat was? I am starting to see the advantages here (in a big way). I want to think some more about it when I get home and look deeply at the spell list and the order of activation things but I can see how unlike Vlad you both threaten at distance AND can fuel things up. Moreover, it provides some really interesting assassination threats because of overrun....Pretty high skill level but also a pretty high skill level to understand it and plan against....at the tournament level probably encourages "Here are my cards" when players ask because part of what you don't want to do is lay out your entire plan...since some of it depends not necessarily on a "gotcha" but on taking advantage of the opening that your opponent provides to trigger overrun off a jack kill.....stay tuned ;-) BTW - the one thing I am struggling with is why Ruin over Spriggan (or why it might make sense to bring both). The reason really is bulldoze....and how if you can "open the line" and trigger overrun (BTW - Strak is WAY forward so it is a money try) you can send the holy spear of autodead to go wack down a caster - bulldozing your way to success. Juris - keep in mind he also has occultation. While not a HUGE thing against MANY Cygnar lists it would be against Nemo3 depending on the armor. So, for example, we could envision Occultation on Shocktroopers which would likely be able to weather leaps off fireflies (dice -9) even under the feat baring very very very hot dice. At effective speed 8 on the feat turn the shocks would still be able to get where they wanted to be.
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Post by Voodoogk on Mar 29, 2017 22:09:19 GMT
I don't think that's really the case, most people know Strakhs heaven piercing spear manuever, so I wouldn't expect people at a tournament not to see it coming. Still a 21" Assassination is pretty good even if you dont surprise them with it. Ruins better because he's mat 8, magic immune with dispel. Spriggans never gonna hit anything. Grolar would be my next choice for the lead jack, then beast09 due to being too expensive. Ruin might be the only indispensable thing in the list though.
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