|
Post by Cryptix on Mar 30, 2017 13:08:15 GMT
I'm sorry, but I have never, ever liked Conquest. Can someone please explain to me why you would ever take her over Victor, aside from the 1 point difference? I'll do an in-depth later, but suffice to say that first generation colossals are pure beatsticks while second generations are more support types. It's more apparent in Cryx, but still there.
|
|
Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
|
Post by Growl on Mar 30, 2017 13:23:00 GMT
Cryptix Thanks! I have seen people using her for some time and just never got it? While Victor on the other hand is far from perfect, his longer range and effects from his gun have always struck me as much more useful.
|
|
|
Post by Netherby on Mar 30, 2017 14:46:25 GMT
So Vicky secondary guns are pretty useless and the main gun can't really hit anything directly. So you can't place the AoE exactly where you want and the effects are less useful in Mk3 high armour meta.
Conny on the other hand can hit reliably with the main gun and has an awesome critical effect. Her secondary guns provide pretty much all the anti single wound infantry defence you're likely to need with creeping barrage AND they are high explosive with 2 attacks each.
I think it's harder to make a case to take Vicky over Conny to be honest. Though if your plan with Strakov is to put the extra ranged attack upkeep on them, then I can see how Vicky would be more attractive.
|
|
|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on Mar 30, 2017 14:57:02 GMT
Vicky and Connie...That's adorable.
I guess we also have:
Maud, Decker, Desiree, the Rapper Formorly Known as Grolar and....Juggs...
|
|
|
Post by Armchair Warrior on Mar 30, 2017 18:05:56 GMT
Netherby and Welsh got it right.
The big gun hits way better on Connie. Rat 4 vs Rat 0.
The extra 2" on the secondry guns plus the AOE is huge. So much more work gets done. Vicky's secondary guns are completely useless.
Connies defensive tech is useful vs weapon master infantry. Heck, against any single wound infantry.
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Mar 30, 2017 20:36:33 GMT
Welsh, I see I've convinced you with the grolar as the key assassination piece with Strakhov or as a good warjack with Strakhov in general I prefer the conquest to the Victor, the secondary guns on the conquest can do something and against a lot of stuff don't even need focus to boost, against infantry you don't care if you hit or miss since it's going to be a pow 10 anyway and pow 10 is enough to take care of most infantry. It's also part of what makes the conquest a reliable overrun trigger, you're not relying on an innacurate gun to trigger your stuff. Creeping barrage is also situationnaly good, but can be life saving against hard hitting infantry.
|
|
|
Post by Blargaliscious on Mar 31, 2017 0:57:34 GMT
What? The sex or the conquest? I wouldn't recommend both at the same time however. [br Agreed. That would be...awkward. The Spriggan's utility here is the extra threat projection from Bulldoze. That's really good. And Superiority is really a MAT fixer for him. After seeing some screwed up large-breasted muscular female / Khador warjack smash-up drawings on some art website, I'm going to double-agree on the awkwardness.
And I agree regarding the Spriggan.
If you throw a couple of bodies in front of Ruin he has to trample through them to get to the caster. If you have a Spriggan, he'll just knock them aside during the charge. Where ever a Spriggan goes, he's constantly muttering "I'm coming through, b/#ches."
Aside from the extra point of armor and the grenade launchers, there's one other, psychology-related benefit that Spriggan has over Ruin: nobody pays attention to a Spriggan - everybody pays attention to Ruin. You're probably not going to surprise anyone with Ruin, but your opponent will figure out the Heaven Piercing Spear only after his chest has been penetrated by a giant spear and gets smashed in the face with a big shield.
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Mar 31, 2017 2:08:21 GMT
Yeah but people will only make the mistake of ignoring the spriggan once, after that they'll be more careful. I still can't understand how the spriggan ended up costing 19 points though... I mean bulldoze and the flares are great, but 19 points great, I'm not so sure.
|
|
|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on Mar 31, 2017 2:15:08 GMT
Because it was good in Ye Olden Times, and got less help in the transition. Not really realising that by buffing everything else it was made significantly worse.
It's one of those things that CID will catch quickly but PP won't notice.
I think it needs more than just a single point drop now. At LEAST two in my mind. Its got only a solid Primary weapon and a weak secondary, its also not as accurate as our other choices.
|
|
|
Post by Armchair Warrior on Mar 31, 2017 2:46:26 GMT
I'd like to see a 1 point drop (equivalent to Grolar in cost), but bump the MAT to 7, give it Assault (like Torch has), and bump damage on the spear up... maybe POW 19 and an additional die of damage on the charge attack.
|
|
|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on Mar 31, 2017 2:49:08 GMT
Its assault would be worthless. I would like something done with its cannons. Pow 10 is a Joke. Stealth Removal is interesting, but doesn't combine well with its pricepoint and proximity required to pull it off.
Its a jack that needs to be pushed in some direction. Either better melee or better ranged.
|
|
|
Post by Cryptix on Mar 31, 2017 2:51:37 GMT
I'd say 18, and POW 21 lance. Maybe give it Dual Attack and that rule that lets it target out of melee.
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Mar 31, 2017 2:54:20 GMT
I'd say bump the mat up to 7 so it can have the same mat as the juggernaut chassis and give the grenades high explosive. Maybe a point reduction too.
|
|
|
Post by Blargaliscious on Mar 31, 2017 4:36:10 GMT
I agree that the Spriggan is a little lack-luster for its points, but I think some of the suggestions are a little OP. Also, I'd like to do a little outside of the box thinking for our beloved Spriggan. I'd like to keep the cost the same and add two special rules:
For the Shield I'd like to add "Impact Attack (Shield) - While charging this model may make Impact Attacks like a cavalry model at one point of its movement, using the Shield instead of a Mount for the damage."
And whatever doesn't get killed will get Bulldozed once the bases go B2B.
I would also like to add "Steel Wall - This model may spend a focus point and go into Shield Wall with another model that has this rule. Only models that are B2B with another model with the Steel Wall rule that has also spent the focus point for this are considered to be in Shield Wall. Warjacks may not spend a second focus point to charge or run on the same turn as going into Shield Wall. Shield Wall last for one round."
Here is your armor 25 Khador warjack, no spells.
|
|
|
Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 31, 2017 14:12:14 GMT
Oh God, we're talking about the Spriggan again! Must... resist... urge... to... rantSPRIGGAN SHOULD BE MAT 7! IT MAKES NO SENSE IN GAME OR FLUFF FOR IT TO BE MAT 6? WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN US PP?
Ah-hem. I've said this before many times, but what the hell, here we go again: Fluff-wise, the Spriggan was designed because the Empress herself charged the Mechanics Assembly to build her a jack that would bring Khador victory. It makes no sense that they came back with a jack who is more expensive (the Spriggan weighs like 50% more than a Juggernaut in the fluff), has less armour (ARM 19 base!) doesn't hit as hard, and doesn't fight as well. OK, I can kinda accept not hitting as hard because it's weapons are designed to give it more range (although as Beast 09 proves, it's easy to have both: just put a longer handle on your axe), and I guess PP thought unbuffed ARM 20+2 was OP (debatable considering some of the available combos in this game...), but there is just no reason why it should have lower MAT than the Juggernaut chassis.
Personally the most important thing I think the Spriggan needs is that MAT buff. At that point in my head what you're giving up (1 point of P+S on both weapons, the open fist, 1 point of base ARM, 7 points you could spend on other stuff) can be worth what you're gaining (1" of threat range, a shield, Bulldoze, immunity to knockdown, Stealth removal) depending on your list/meta, but that extra point of MAT is just the last straw to me. I hate it because the Spriggan is just visually my favourite model in Khador, but it's so hard to justify them now.
One thing I think would be great for the Spriggan thematically is to be immune to pushes and slams, same as the Clamjacks. It would just make him a little less situational as he would be a slightly better Scenario jack than a Juggernaut, but a better beatstick than a Clamjack, making him once again a good all-rounder.
Personally though, I would love it if the Spriggan had base ARM 20. I would be fine with downgrading the Shield to a Buckler for ARM 20+1, especially since that would give him an Open Fist (hopefully at P+S 15), as it would be a straight upgrade over the cheaper Juggernaut Chassis' ARM 20 (ARM 19+2 is more of a sideways move in my opinion). Unfortunately it can be argued that it the shield the model is carrying is too big to be a buckler, but personally I don't think it's that much bigger than what Gallant is holding, and that's considered a buckler. Plus PP isn't terribly consistent here anyways: Ruin is carrying a buckler, but it doesn't even give him any armour at all...
Sorry for going on and on about this, but in my defense, I didn't start this war... I mean topic...
|
|