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Post by skathrex on Mar 21, 2017 8:03:45 GMT
I'm concerned about the future of Warmahordes, I like many of you was left disillusioned by GW after many years and $1,000s invested in 40k and I'm really worried about the decision to shut the forum. A bit of context, I'm that one super competitive player in my meta. I spend huge amounts of time theory crafting lists, I play 2 factions but I religiously read every detail of every other faction (bought them all on war room 1 and 2). I love watching battle reports and was guilty of bringing ridiculous cheese to the 40k table. I am also the primary organiser and convinced my local meta to switch from 40k with the promise of a cheaper, faster and more balanced game. I haven't played warmahordes in 3 months. My promise of balance didn't really pan out and the meta is moving back to GW, the overwhelming feedback I get is "if I'm going to be playing an unbalanced game I want to play with the cooler models and fluff" Then PP close their awesome forums (because people complain about imbalance) and disband their pressgangers... the guys who arrange the competitive play... so what am I supposed to tell my mates who see 40ks new and glorious models (with incredibly unbalanced rules)? I know 40k is far less balanced than warmahordes but for my circle playing friend who has only won 1/10 of his last games because he simply bought the wrong models it's a tough sell. I still love warmahordes but it's starting to look like if I want to play a war game I'd better break out my 40k models. Hmm thats a bit difficult to answer. When you say you are the only competetive player, does that mean the others are not competetive at all? Because the way I see it, when you are looking for Beer & Brezels games, 40k is way better, just because of the Fluff and the awesome modells. However I switched recently from 40k to WMH not because I don't like 40k. But I like WMH more. In WMH your decisions matter a lot more. Army Buidling matters a lot more etc. When your 1/10 Circle friend just started and bought the wrong models than it may have something to do with various factors: 1. Do the other players in your meta only play what is on top? 2. How experienced is he? New players loose more than they win. 3. Why does he only play with those models? Doesn't he want to buy anything else, does he like the look? In my experience when you start a new tabletop (or even faction) often times the first models you buy won't be that good, so at some point you are will not contain any of your first buys, just because you learned more of the game, or the game changed etc. The only thing you can do is convince them how balanced WMH acutally is (preferably not by playing only the best and beating them with it). Maybe just change Lists with your friends and show them that not the Lists are the problem, but that WMH has a steep learning curve. Btw I don't think WMH is that unbalanced. The only place where the balance shines threw is in the top competetive lvls.
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Post by kallus on Mar 21, 2017 20:08:15 GMT
It's fair to say most of my friends aren't super competitive in the sense they don't research in the same way I do but they are competitive in that they turn up to win.
The circle friend started playing with me in mk2 and is the most experienced of my friends, he sunk about $300 into models at the end of mk2 and picked up blood trackers, wolf riders, Druids, bloodweavers and a few casters and solos.
Roll on mk3 and he's getting stomped by the beginner, khador, retribution and menoth player, turns out he can't really deal with armour stacking effectively with the models/casters he has.
The one win he's had recently was when I played pre-errata skorne into him and after I came out ahead on attrition and he became even more frustrated with his faction I pointed out to him a sneaky scenario winning move.
I'm not sure what he can do to get more wins short of just buying more/better models (like wormwood and more stalkers) which I'm sure he wouldn't be keen to do considering what his last spend-up achieved.
Haven't seen our cryx player since his first mk3 game.
As far as our other warmachine players are concerned they're mostly going jack heavy with one combat unit and some support as it's cheaper financially and not surprising the khador player is enjoying the most success amongst them.
Do I just tell them you need to spend more money and spend that money on the right models for the game to feel fair enough that both players have fun? I've pushed my luck enough as is.
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Post by skathrex on Mar 22, 2017 8:58:25 GMT
It's fair to say most of my friends aren't super competitive in the sense they don't research in the same way I do but they are competitive in that they turn up to win. The circle friend started playing with me in mk2 and is the most experienced of my friends, he sunk about $300 into models at the end of mk2 and picked up blood trackers, wolf riders, Druids, bloodweavers and a few casters and solos. Roll on mk3 and he's getting stomped by the beginner, khador, retribution and menoth player, turns out he can't really deal with armour stacking effectively with the models/casters he has. The one win he's had recently was when I played pre-errata skorne into him and after I came out ahead on attrition and he became even more frustrated with his faction I pointed out to him a sneaky scenario winning move. I'm not sure what he can do to get more wins short of just buying more/better models (like wormwood and more stalkers) which I'm sure he wouldn't be keen to do considering what his last spend-up achieved. Haven't seen our cryx player since his first mk3 game. As far as our other warmachine players are concerned they're mostly going jack heavy with one combat unit and some support as it's cheaper financially and not surprising the khador player is enjoying the most success amongst them. Do I just tell them you need to spend more money and spend that money on the right models for the game to feel fair enough that both players have fun? I've pushed my luck enough as is. Well, I think you are in somewhat of a pickle because to be honest the best solution I see is for them to buy models. A Edition change always signalls a lot of change. WMH is no different. What you can tell them though is, that for the moment there are other models that are good, but that doesn't mean that their Units won't be made better in the long run. I know that requires a lot of patience but with the way PP is handling things, this is what I believe. And to be quite honest 300$ doesn't get you very far in Tabletops. In 40k that gets you a about a 1000 Points worth of stuff. I know his problem though. The casters I want to run often have problems with Armor. But thats another aspect of WMH, thats what a second List is for. Maybe he just has bad matchups with his stuff. That may be hard on the money, but compared to 40k its a blessing since you when you meat you nemesis there you have no chance at all. Long story short, if they want to play the game they have to keep up with the changes, not matter which game you want to play. Only other way is to ask your opponent to bring less armor heavy lists. Same goes for Cryx btw. (and if the Khador player had started in MK2 same would have been true for him)
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Post by kallus on Mar 22, 2017 9:40:53 GMT
To be honest I agree with you but as you said if they want to play the game they will need more models, my problem is they don't want to play the game, because they need more models, because the game isn't balanced (at least in their eyes)
I appreciate that you're trying to put a positive angle on everything but you can't polish a turd (and rolling it in glitter is only a temporary fix) it's looking like my meta will die and I'm not willing to travel two hours for a game so I guess I'm done playing warmahordes for the foreseeable future. I hope I'm wrong because personally I love the game but one can't play it on their own.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 22, 2017 10:15:57 GMT
To be honest I agree with you but as you said if they want to play the game they will need more models, my problem is they don't want to play the game, because they need more models, because the game isn't balanced (at least in their eyes) I appreciate that you're trying to put a positive angle on everything but you can't polish a turd (and rolling it in glitter is only a temporary fix) it's looking like my meta will die and I'm not willing to travel two hours for a game so I guess I'm done playing warmahordes for the foreseeable future. I hope I'm wrong because personally I love the game but one can't play it on their own. It would be sad to see you go for this, especially because you still like the game. I hope your meta will recover, but in the meantime, have you considered vassal to get your fix?
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Post by skathrex on Mar 22, 2017 13:16:53 GMT
To be honest I agree with you but as you said if they want to play the game they will need more models, my problem is they don't want to play the game, because they need more models, because the game isn't balanced (at least in their eyes) I appreciate that you're trying to put a positive angle on everything but you can't polish a turd (and rolling it in glitter is only a temporary fix) it's looking like my meta will die and I'm not willing to travel two hours for a game so I guess I'm done playing warmahordes for the foreseeable future. I hope I'm wrong because personally I love the game but one can't play it on their own. Well trying to stay postive makes the world that much more enjoyable for me But in all honestly you just have to convince them that WMH is somewhat balanced. Thats why I suggested switching armys, so you (the experienced player) can show them that they just need to work on themselfes to win, and its not the army. I am a strong believer that WMH is fairly balanced, especially in local metas/tournaments. And I strongly disagree with WMH beeing a turd that needs polish. Again compared to 40k its gold (even if 40k got the looks). The same thing can easily happen when you start 40k, just with you loosing way more money to bad models. I can only advice you to try to stay postive and convince them how awesome WMH is.
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Barakus
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 9
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Post by Barakus on Mar 22, 2017 13:41:06 GMT
Here's what brings my blood to a boil. I quit WMH for almost a year and sold off all my stuff. When MK3 came around my buddy asked me to come back, so I dropped $200 on a brand new Cygnar army. Then literally 1 week later they expunge the forums and tell their customers to gtfo.
I won't be spending another cent on this game, or any other system PP has, until they stop pulling this Tom Kirby crap.
With that being said, I do like WarmaHordes, I do like the community of players that it has built, and I do like the MK3 general rules. Obviously balance is out the window, but in general it's a good game.
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Post by Permutation Servitor on Mar 22, 2017 13:50:21 GMT
It's fair to say most of my friends aren't super competitive in the sense they don't research in the same way I do but they are competitive in that they turn up to win. The circle friend started playing with me in mk2 and is the most experienced of my friends, he sunk about $300 into models at the end of mk2 and picked up blood trackers, wolf riders, Druids, bloodweavers and a few casters and solos. Roll on mk3 and he's getting stomped by the beginner, khador, retribution and menoth player, turns out he can't really deal with armour stacking effectively with the models/casters he has. The one win he's had recently was when I played pre-errata skorne into him and after I came out ahead on attrition and he became even more frustrated with his faction I pointed out to him a sneaky scenario winning move. I'm not sure what he can do to get more wins short of just buying more/better models (like wormwood and more stalkers) which I'm sure he wouldn't be keen to do considering what his last spend-up achieved. Haven't seen our cryx player since his first mk3 game. As far as our other warmachine players are concerned they're mostly going jack heavy with one combat unit and some support as it's cheaper financially and not surprising the khador player is enjoying the most success amongst them. Do I just tell them you need to spend more money and spend that money on the right models for the game to feel fair enough that both players have fun? I've pushed my luck enough as is. I have a friend with basically the same models. He picked them for the aesthetics. He doesn't really have a theme force to use since he doesn't play the medium based Tharn, so that theme doesn't really work well. He doesn't play druids/constructs and doesn't play wolf sworn. He likes the Wolf-y beasts, so no theme for him. This might get fixed eventually, but at this point, it's not a great place. As for your friend, try to coach him to win on scenario or assassination. It's all he can really do if he can't crack armour. Perhaps the new Steamroller will help as well?
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Post by kallus on Mar 22, 2017 19:36:26 GMT
Gamingdevil I have looked at vassal and downloaded it about a year ago, that might be the best option for me going forward, not quite the same as seeing my models on the table but I'll take what I can get at this point. skathrexThe key there is convincing them to play again, whether it is with my army or theirs. @permutation Servitor That sounds like his best option, he like your friend bought the models he liked the look of (that and they were pretty good in mk2) I just hope I have he gives it another shot.
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Post by CrazyUncleDouglas on Apr 18, 2017 16:32:34 GMT
The Khador forum was great and may it RIP. I agree. When I heard it was going away I was very sad. I did a powerful lot of posting there in the last 12+ years. Fortunately this forum sprang up and a lot of the old posters migrated over here. I keep seeing familiar names popping up. I think that a lot of people had negative feelings about their faction forums, and while there were probably some Khador players that felt that way too, I think that most enjoyed the Khador forum. A lot of good discussion took place there. I agree. I referred to the Khador forums as a gathering of drinking buddies. We didn't agree on everything, and sometimes would start a bar fight or two, but we enjoyed the time all the same and few if any held a grudge. The community there was a cut above, in my opinion, and we never were able to carry out our plan to forcefully annex the other faction forums I mean -- we never had plans like that at all. Ahem. Seriously though, the Khador community was great and in some ways colors our response to its loss in the official forums. Still, when I was single and had disposable income to spare I went ADD on factions and never had a bad experience in any of the other communities. Granted, I last played about five years ago prior to getting married, so I can't say what it was like before. I would not doubt there were bad elements creeping in everywhere, because that's just human nature. However I still dislike PP's response -- not wanting to deal with it they get rid of it altogether. Talk about throwing out baby with the bathwater! It's disappointing to see. It has created a disconnect between seller and buyers when before we believed we had a decent community going on. Also, feel free to come by Khador and have a drink or bar fight with us anytime.
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darque
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 4
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Post by darque on Apr 19, 2017 13:10:59 GMT
I think the only reason I have left to go to the PP forums is the painting and Modeling forum. Nothing else is interesting to me. I wonder if they will ever post traffic data so we can see the drop.
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on Apr 19, 2017 14:09:35 GMT
I wonder if they will ever post traffic data so we can see the drop. I doubt it. It won't be of benefit to anyone and will just add fuel to the "PP is the new GW they're the worst-est" flames.
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eathotlead
Junior Strategist
PP forumite since 2004
Posts: 259
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Post by eathotlead on Apr 20, 2017 9:47:01 GMT
I think the only reason I have left to go to the PP forums is the painting and Modeling forum. Nothing else is interesting to me. I wonder if they will ever post traffic data so we can see the drop. Strangely, after many years I even feel less drawn to the painting / modeling PP forum. Maybe its a mass effect thing, whereby there's simply less on the PP overall forum so I can't hang around a bit reading general comments, faction discussions, etc. after a browse of the painted stuff. I feel cut off from the larger central community.
Maybe that's illogical but I've just lost interest. The unfortunate side effect is I'm less motivated to paint in general. I imagine I'll keep the embers going by mostly just posting here.
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eathotlead
Junior Strategist
PP forumite since 2004
Posts: 259
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Post by eathotlead on Apr 20, 2017 10:18:48 GMT
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eathotlead
Junior Strategist
PP forumite since 2004
Posts: 259
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Post by eathotlead on Jun 8, 2017 0:17:37 GMT
I think the only reason I have left to go to the PP forums is the painting and Modeling forum. Nothing else is interesting to me. I wonder if they will ever post traffic data so we can see the drop. It's worth noting that after a hesitant return to the PP *painting* forum, which actually remains, posting activity looks very light. I think there are simply insufficient people on the PP forums in general to generate timely replies to painting posts. With players and hobbyists now scattered across the Internet, I doubt that anywhere will be a buzz of activity like it once was. I've heard disillusioned podcasters say "wasteland" and forumites say "post-nuke". It seems that, even a couple months after the mushroom cloud, they're right. This is both personal observation and web traffic numbers. Those Alexa stats continue to drop, at least for the PP forums proper.
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