|
|
Post by Jabberwokk on Mar 16, 2017 15:09:56 GMT
Listened to the whole thing.
Final grade: D
The press-ganger side of things was somewhat understandable but without knowing the specifics as to why it's hard to know if this was really a 'business' decision or just avoiding litigation which would make it a legality issue.
The forums side of things was abysmal. The reason given was weak as hell and I suspect he knows it. Untill we stop living in a universe consisting of atoms positive and negative forces are things we need to learn to contend and deal with as they are the very building blocks of our material existence. I find very few things needlessly negative in the context of the game. If something is bad then the claim is either true or false. If it's true deal with it, I don't care about your feelings. If it's false move on. People are going to take sides and debate to find out which of the two outcomes a claim has. Saying something is bad (and therefore implying it must be changed/dealt with) is no more 'negative' then saying your not wearing any pants or you spilt coffee on yourself. It may be embarrassing or even hurtful to hear but is in fact a display of kindness. I means you cared enough to protect the dignity or well being of another. There's a saying: wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses. You know, like the guy blaming the community for bringing this on themselves.
Anyone who posted in the forums cared about the game deeply and it showed, they still do, they post here now. PP has to understand the timing and context of these actions are being perceived as cutting off the communities noes then giving them a rose to smell. We got rid of the forums because we don't like what you have to say but we have CID because we want to hear what you have to say. Sorry that's contradictory. And don't pass this off as a business decision, the only thing business cares about is green, it really could care less about peoples perceptions on positive vs negative. The only time it factors in is if it affects there bottom line and even then it isn't because they magically had a change of heart it's because they want you to buy and business will do what it must. I find it hilarious where the host went on about taking his emotions out that it's just business but then when the PP forums topic came about oh it's too negative. It's 'problematic'.
What's 'problematic' is how far you've fallen and how much you have betrayed the original spirit of the game:
"Warning: Not suitable for wussies!" -- It is now.
"This is a game made for you, by people like you. " -- Not anymore.
"It's not a load of sterilized mass market drek designed by a room of corporate meatplow." -- Sanitized for your convenience.
"This is raw. This is brutal." -- Unless your too negative.
"So play like you've got a pair, or put down the metal and go find something made of plastic." -- You know what? This one's on me. I guess I should have seen it coming.
You either die a hero or.....
|
|
|
|
Post by whiskeydave on Mar 16, 2017 15:26:00 GMT
Two replies to your post:
1. Most of your post is bullshit!
2. You make some good points about the need for more information, but I disagree with your conclusions.
#1 is what much of the PP forums felt like.
#2 makes a similar point in a way that adults speak to one another.
To continue skipping over the problems with *HOW* many forum posters were *VENTING* their frustrations and pretend like this was all about PP not wanting to accept any critical feedback is ridiculous.
Please stop it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Permutation Servitor on Mar 16, 2017 15:38:14 GMT
If I recall correctly, Marc from Combo Smite mentioned that the Mods on the forums were part of the Press Gang program. Since they were being compensated with company product for moderating, they were "let go" as well. Since there aren't as many mods available to look after the forums, the forums had to shrink due to lack of staff.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jabberwokk on Mar 16, 2017 15:40:03 GMT
1.) Informative
2.) which one's?
I didn't have any issue with how the forums were like. I was quite happy to visit them every day.
I am an adult and I am speaking this way. Unless you prefer me to speak like the adults at the University of Berkley.
By all means post your citations. Oh wait you can't those discussions are gone. In any case the only posts I found unhelpful were discussion on subjective nonsense like boobplate and combat heels. I found the discussions on Haley , storm lances, 2Una, Cryx issues insightful. The rest of the time I was on the legion forums. Sorry I don't see what you see.
|
|
|
|
Post by bakemono on Mar 16, 2017 15:46:47 GMT
Two replies to your post: 1. Most of your post is bullshit! 2. You make some good points about the need for more information, but I disagree with your conclusions. #1 is what much of the PP forums felt like. #2 makes a similar point in a way that adults speak to one another. To continue skipping over the problems with *HOW* many forum posters were *VENTING* their frustrations and pretend like this was all about PP not wanting to accept any critical feedback is ridiculous. Please stop it. Hardly. Privateer Press isn't our buddy. They aren't some sort of non-profit organization. They are a vendor, nothing more and nothing less. When their customers (in ever increasing numbers) start to vent, it behooves them to listen. Does that mean their customers feel entitled? Sure. That is exactly how people who patronize a business feel, because they ARE entitled. They pay the bills. I will never understand this weird shill/fan complex that arises in some in regards to gaming companies, as if they are somehow different from an auto dealership or a restaurant because they make toys. Let me be more direct, if I go to my favorite restaurant and they serve me below par food, I am going to have a word with the manager. They will always be expected to meet the bar they have set or exceed it. If I buy a car from an auto dealer and it is a lemon, you can bet your bottom dollar I will be having words with them. I am also going to talk to other people about my experiences. The same applies to gaming companies. If you want quality, you hold them to the standards you expect. You stop giving them your patronage if they fail to produce. Privateer set a higher standard for themselves in the past and that is exactly why they are getting roasted now. You can't stick the genie back into the bottle. The entire MK-III release was handled poorly. We know it. They know it. In fact, the entire direction of the company is a poor choice. We know that too because we have seen it BEFORE. All these little side games they are spending time on detract from the main game (and getting the fixes in) that people want to see. The side games, which now have huge amounts of space at the old Forum, are just like all those Games Workshop products that were thrown out, never supported, and withered on the vine. Literally, I could bring out a Games Workshop timeline and show the weird attempts by Privateer to emulate them of late. Nobody wants to see Privateer make a course correction more than me. I came to them because of what they offered, the company attitude, and the fact that they took input AND GUFF from their customers in stride. This isn't the first time they have gotten roasted. The difference is that in the past they simply learned from it and moved on. This isn't the Privateer we knew, sadly. In response to your "stop that" to the other guy... you don't have to read their posts. I'm sure you won't find anything that doesn't fit your narrative at the Privateer Forum. Here there are going to be people saying good things and bad about Privateer (I will likely say things of both types). |
|
|
|
Post by whiskeydave on Mar 16, 2017 16:01:37 GMT
Two replies to your post: 1. Most of your post is bullshit! 2. You make some good points about the need for more information, but I disagree with your conclusions. #1 is what much of the PP forums felt like. #2 makes a similar point in a way that adults speak to one another. To continue skipping over the problems with *HOW* many forum posters were *VENTING* their frustrations and pretend like this was all about PP not wanting to accept any critical feedback is ridiculous. Please stop it. I will never understand this weird shill/fan complex that arises in some in regards to gaming companies, as if they are somehow different from an auto dealership or a restaurant because they make toys. ... if I go to my favorite restaurant and they serve me below par food, I am going to have a word with the manager. ... If you want quality, you hold them to the standards you expect. You stop giving them your patronage if they fail to produce. 1. I shill for no one. So you can "understand" whatever you want. Asking people to speak without ridiculous amounts of hyperbole about the problems they are having with a company is not shilling and you disingenuously lump my post into that category. 2. Bad food at a restaurant is a great reason to have a word with the manager. Now, if the "word" is "your shit sucks and you do not know what you are doing #gotocookingschool, #chefspace", then I would expect that you'd be escorted from the restaurant. 3. I agree completely and would add that you also give them feedback that is not couched in language that makes them stop reading your rant within 4 words. Honestly I wonder if most of the issues that someone like me has with others isn't rooted in the idea that for more than half my life there was not an internet where you could troll and be ridiculously rude to people anonymously, so I expect people to actually be civil. |
|
|
|
Post by bakemono on Mar 16, 2017 16:15:59 GMT
Perhaps, and time will tell. I'm not being disingenuous, however, because I'm not stating something I know to be false. You might prove me wrong by your actions and words, and in that case I will correct my opinion of you, but to be disingenuous I would have to be knowingly telling lies.
Except that isn't what was happening, and you know that very well. The critiques were well-reasoned, discussed within the rules of the forum, and coming from lots of respected, well-mannered types. You seem to be implying there was some sort of flame war going on over there which we all know to be blatantly false. Do I need to return to the definition of disingenuous again?
See my previous answer to #2.
I was around before the internet, through the rise of the BBS, and into the internet. People have always been the same. Discussions in person are just as heated and passionate. That is why there are rules about discussing politics and religion at certain times. The only thing the internet does is allow you to have the same chats with more people without going somewhere.
|
|
|
|
Post by Swampmist on Mar 16, 2017 16:21:19 GMT
I'm going to disagree with your second point; there where plenty of heated arguments (they keep popping up here, can confirm) that devolved into hyperbole and name calling. The thing was that more often than not they wouldn't last but a few moments with mods stepping in and clearing the junk. Now, if the hear-say is anywhere near true and they have cut down their mod staff (not saying it is, but bear with me here,) then they likely wouldn't be able to keep the grip they needed on those things to deal with the insanity that could erupt in general discussion especially, but also in the faction forums with varying frequency.
|
|
|
|
Post by whiskeydave on Mar 16, 2017 16:29:05 GMT
Our memories of general discussion are VERY different. For every ONE decent thread(None LASTED as they all wound up attracting the trolls) there were two troll threads.
The faction forums were better to varying degrees(loved Convergence one), but I view them as collateral damage.
In the circle forum, I tried starting a simple discussion to find out if there was a general consensus about just 2 models that we'd like to suggest be addressed first when CID started looking at existing models. I clearly laid out the parameters and reasons for what I was looking for and why I wanted to limit to two. (Because I wanted to know if there WAS a consensus of where to start).
There were some thoughtful replies at the start and it made me consider things that I had not, but by page two it had already devolved into "Two models are not enough! We have SO many problems here are 30! #designspace, blah blah blah, PP sucks!"
And then an argument about the intent of the thread and insults at me that I thought somehow that two models would be enough to fix all of circles problems, etc... Ridiculous nonsense.
PP wanted their forums to be a place that new people could come and not have to deal with drama and just learn about the game. The forum community repeatedly showed they could not be that place without drastic change. I am saddened by the loss of good things there, but recognize that sometimes you have to cut off more than you'd like to deal with an infection.
Perhaps your perceptions of the forums painted some sort of rosier picture, so we'll just accept that we disagree on that, at least in terms of general discussion.
And now, we literally have a place to discuss every future change the PP is looking at in a controlled environment designed to keep things on track. I am saddened that I do not currently have the time to devote to giving useful feedback about an entire faction, but love reading the reports of others. I am also enormously excited to contribute when it starts coming in smaller chunks with pre-existing models to see how they behave in known contexts.
Whatever may have been lost with recent decisions, I honestly think that what they are working towards at the moment is the coolest incarnation for feedback I have ever seen from them.
I hope that I can be excited for by some of the steps they are taking without being labeled a shill, but we'll see.
|
|
|
|
Post by bakemono on Mar 16, 2017 16:38:23 GMT
I recall the thread and took part. Your wish to limit the discussion to two was your thing, and clearly not shared by everyone else.  That alone should have been a cue to you that there was a larger problem with Privateer. Again, you seem to have missed the lesson from the thread you started. You were looking to see if there was consensus on the issue; there was a consensus that there were a lot more than two models needing work. There was a consensus that people were unsatisfied and unhappy. The truth is that a public forum is a super organism. You can introduce ideas and discussions, but you must accept that you don't get to control them. You wanted to talk about two, and the majority of people said that ain't enough brother. Even the people who limited themselves to two said it ain't enough. I took part and recall it being passionate but in no way a flame war or a a bloody fight. It was a pretty honest expression of thoughts. You should be happy that the discussion you started ignited so much parlance. Since when? I've been at their Forum (and with their game) since the start. The saltiness of today ain't got NOTHING on the past. If anything the Forum was downright civil compared to others. You keep implying it was some sort of bloodbath and Privateer stepped in to save us from ourselves? You aren't doing much to convince me of the non-shill thing here. Remember, MOST of us were over there. We know how things actually were. It wasn't that long ago. |
|
|
|
Post by whiskeydave on Mar 16, 2017 16:52:02 GMT
I recall the thread and took part. Your wish to limit the discussion to two was your thing, and clearly not shared by everyone else. That alone should have been a cue to you that there was a larger problem with Privateer. Again, you seem to have missed the lesson from the thread you started. You were looking to see if there was consensus on the issue; there was a consensus that there were a lot more than two models needing work. There was a consensus that people were unsatisfied and unhappy. The truth is that a public forum is a super organism. You can introduce ideas and discussions, but you must accept that you don't get to control them. You wanted to talk about two, and the majority of people said that ain't enough brother. Even the people who limited themselves to two said it ain't enough. I took part and recall it being passionate but in no way a flame war or a a bloody fight. It was a pretty honest expression of thoughts. You should be happy that the discussion you started ignited so much parlance. Since when? I've been at their Forum (and with their game) since the start. The saltiness of today ain't got NOTHING on the past. If anything the Forum was downright civil compared to others. You keep implying it was some sort of bloodbath and Privateer stepped in to save us from ourselves? You aren't doing much to convince me of the non-shill thing here. Remember, MOST of us were over there. We know how things actually were. It wasn't that long ago. "Again you seem to have missed"... You enjoy phrases like that. They are super useful for debate purposes I suppose. I DID want to limit the discussion to two. Because PP said they were not going to SKORNE again. Maybe I had taken the time to read more about the CID process than you or others and heard them clearly say they'd be looking at particular groups of models and adding in one or two outliers from other factions. So, I was hoping that we could present "a couple outliers" that had a quorum supporting their choice. I tried my hardest to be clear about that but people were still so angry and myopic that they refused and turned that thread into the same one as EVERY OTHER THREAD IN THE FORUM. What part of my point do YOU seem to keep "missing" to use your own vernacular. I am not inclined to "debate" this with you as you somehow think this is an argument to be "won" rather than accepting that there is a different perspective here that your disappointment with PP and some of their choices makes it more difficult for you to accept. Unless I agree with you, you use words like "shill". Unless I accept your conclusion for the derailment of MY questions to the circle forum, *I* am missing the point. You seem to be a difficult person to have a conversation with, and by that, I do not mean "hard to debate". I mean it more that it is unpleasant and I do not see any usefulness in continuing it as I do not expect that I will learn anything useful. (Unlike the first page of my Circle thread where people made some excellent points about tharn that made me reconsider my quest to have Watcher and LOTF looked at first) So... Ya know... Good luck with the angst and all, but I have more fun bat reps to catch up on at CID forums.  |
|
|
|
Post by Swampmist on Mar 16, 2017 17:00:56 GMT
ok thats enough for now. id rather not have to lock this thread, so please try to keep it civil.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cryptix on Mar 16, 2017 23:57:53 GMT
ok thats enough for now. id rather not have to lock this thread, so please try to keep it civil. For Firetrucks sake let people discuss instead of using your mod powers to close "uncomfortable" threads, you're not better than any other person here though you may to think differently, closing threads is bullshit. Let people say what they want to say. ...Says the person hiding behind a guest account. I'm going to have to veto that Charlie. |
|
Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685 
|
Post by Lanz on Mar 17, 2017 0:00:00 GMT
For the record, I support IP-banning problematic guests instead of removing the guest system.
Not that it's related or anything. Just felt it needed to be said.
|
|
thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
|
Post by thelat on Mar 17, 2017 1:08:59 GMT
For the record, I support IP-banning problematic guests instead of removing the guest system. Not that it's related or anything. Just felt it needed to be said. I am also a fan of this. |
|
That alone should have been a cue to you that there was a larger problem with Privateer.
