Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496 
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Post by Growl on Mar 20, 2017 23:10:50 GMT
I think it is hard to make good, somewhat unique rules for units that are ultimately very similar. I would love to see them get some sort of armor buff or no knockdown, no push effects like the Shocktroopers, but then they start to blur the line of why would you take one over the other barring FA? A Vengeance move would be flavorful and different from the other units and not make them generally overpowered. I think some bonus against Large or Huge bases would also add something to them without making them OP.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Mar 20, 2017 23:27:27 GMT
Id say vengeance on slow large based models is pretty bad. They have pretty victimy stats for everything sans Pow 10 peashooters.
They are too vulnerable to use vengance properly. Ask the menoth guys and they will say the same thing about theirs.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Mar 21, 2017 1:46:59 GMT
While I agree that they can be killed, I don't think they can be trivially removed, and 8 boxes is still pretty hardy especially since they can be repaired. Without being a playtester and without trying to imply that I am some sort of authority on this game, I would like some changes to our guys to make them better, not necessarily make them dominant. I think there would have to be a fair amount of attention given to a max squad of 5 demo corps, in order to wipe them out so that they get no benefit from a vengeance move. Furthermore, they likely will not be the only thing on the board to get attention. Without having to rewrite their rules too much, or make them overshadow other choices by too much, a rule like Vengeance could help them out a lot. The change doesn't need to be Vengeance by the way, though I did think that would be useful, but something of that caliber to make them a little more useful and distinct from the shockies.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Mar 21, 2017 1:58:52 GMT
I agree that the Demos and Bombers need a buff. But my point is that one of Menoths Top worst units is Vengers. Who are nearly identical to Demos except they have Vengence.
I'm saying it won't help much. They either need to be delivered better, or make the effort of delivering them more worthwhile.
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Post by Cryptix on Mar 21, 2017 2:43:44 GMT
Would perhaps changing them to just be Continuous Stationary on the Hammers, and give Bombadiers AOE 5 on direct hit?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Mar 21, 2017 2:56:18 GMT
Jeez...Wow..That would be pretty crazy, but hell yeah. Even AOE 4 on a direct hit would be alright. But primarily more increased range. I would like them to get that thing that the Merc Jack has when it can stand in place in order to increase range and get a benifit.
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Post by khadorjack on Mar 21, 2017 8:08:21 GMT
I'm saying it won't help much. They either need to be delivered better, or make the effort of delivering them more worthwhile. We have ways to deliver them. Even the classic Iron flesh would be an idea, plus clouds, feats, MoWST to screen them etc. But you can't deliver them for the entire game. They have to arrive to the target and they should be able to charge it. |
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Post by MrHaystacks on Mar 21, 2017 12:18:48 GMT
Ok, I have had think on this. How about this?
WE LIVE IN STEAM!!!
Any Warcaster
Any non Character Warjack
Behemoth
Man of War Units and Models
Mechanics
Assault Kommando units and models
For every 25 pts spent on MoW units and models; add a free Med Based Solo, Max Mechanic unit or Assault Kommando solo.
Marshaled Jacks gain aggressive
For each Man of War Solo, A MoW unit Gains Advance Move
Assault Kommandos gain Advance Deploy
I figured that AK's would be trailblazers for the MoW's. Clearing obstacles and allowing swift application, then swapping to consolidate and hold their gains.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Mar 21, 2017 13:41:35 GMT
We have ways to deliver them. Even the classic Iron flesh would be an idea, plus clouds, feats, MoWST to screen them etc. But you can't deliver them for the entire game. They have to arrive to the target and they should be able to charge it. My point is that either they should be EASIER to deliver, or reward much harder when they do. If you just keep giving them speed boosts then you are just competing with Cavalry. |
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Post by khadorjack on Mar 21, 2017 13:50:21 GMT
My point is that either they should be EASIER to deliver, or reward much harder when they do. If you just keep giving them speed boosts then you are just competing with Cavalry. I agree the demo (it stays for DEMOLITION) corps would be able to totally wreck everything they touch, that's why i would backswing back or some damage buff against certains targets (siege weapons would be really ok for me). But they need also to be faster. Also a MoWDC kovnik with the appropriate desperate pace rule would be ok, even if i would prefer some sort of UA |
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Mar 21, 2017 13:53:46 GMT
I agree the demo (it stays for DEMOLITION) corps would be able to totally wreck everything they touch, that's why i would backswing back or some damage buff against certains targets (siege weapons would be really ok for me). But they need also to be faster. Also a MoWDC kovnik with the appropriate desperate pace rule would be ok, even if i would prefer some sort of UA You do realize that the Kovnik can target them with Desperat Pace as well? |
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Post by khadorjack on Mar 21, 2017 13:58:10 GMT
You do realize that the Kovnik can target them with Desperat Pace as well? Uh. Potato. REALLY i was totally convinced it was "desperate peace:MoW shocktroopers"... ... ...My God. This changes everything a bit. So at the end now the problem is why play them instead of the MoWST, since they hit only with +2POW and don't have any assault attack. So at the end they do less damage then the ST. |
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Mar 21, 2017 14:25:50 GMT
So at the end now the problem is why play them instead of the MoWST, since they hit only with +2POW and don't have any assault attack. So at the end they do less damage then the ST. No the question is why take them over Iron Fang Cavalry. With the Kovnik the Point Cost is the same, and they do about the same damage. But Even with the Kovnik they are slower and have worse defenses. So my point being is that they could have their own niche by being more difficult to deliver, but hitting much harder when they did. |
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Post by MrHaystacks on Mar 21, 2017 16:29:53 GMT
Actually at the moment they occupy a similar niche to the Cavalry. So I don't think speeding them up would do any good. I would recommend they hit harder. Thats a great point. They have some similar points. But if we did do this comparison, then they need a huge damage buff (On the magnitude of "Mini feat-double swing" I don't think we will get it static due to the pow increase) or better resilience ala Wall of Steel. The cool thing is these can both be granted by a UA so that's all we need to wait for. The Bombardiers need more work and some different thinking. I'd love to see a Character solo give some love to them. A bonus to all MoW's but then something especially useful for them. Also Crit shred is well Meh. Its target is light beasts and jacks and cav'. I kinda wish it was just straight up cleave. Having to target the same model with the attack is (to quote) cute. |
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Post by khadorjack on Mar 21, 2017 19:00:27 GMT
Well, cavalry hits hard only on charge, democorps hit hard in every moment, i think that's the difference. However, a UA that grants wall of steel and a damage buff mini-feat would be the solution.
I would like to see assault on the bombardiers, and maybe something like a mini-feat that grants them a buff to the RNG or a bigger AoE.
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