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Post by skathrex on Mar 23, 2017 9:40:47 GMT
I agree with Soul Samurai assesment. I am very underwhelmed. I don't think the Blessed/magic will rarely see play which is a bummer. I can imagine you would take it when you really need it in a second list against X
But really strakov can use the empower. Maybe in theme? But not sure to be quite honest.
@soul Samurai : Straks feat gives everything +4 inches so thats a possibility, but only on Melee Jacks I think.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Mar 23, 2017 9:46:51 GMT
Yeah, the seers are amazing under Z2. They get a lot of Hoarfrost crits, turning them into mini-Sorschas, they can double empower, they provide blessed for jacks that gets around Z2's inability to negate defensive upkeeps well.
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Post by MrHaystacks on Mar 23, 2017 10:16:32 GMT
I think he could run a Decimator pretty well. If you are running 2 seers, boost both to hit and use either strike true for effective rat 6 boosted if you move or take aim and get +2 dmg too.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 23, 2017 10:22:52 GMT
I wouldn't exactly say that I'm underwhelmed, I'm just not sure I have a place for him in my lists. He seems like a model who can solve some problems or fill a niche, but who doesn't necessarily make sense in every list. Honestly, I'm OK with that. Plus, this is all theory; when people who actually know what they're doing (so people other than me) start putting him on the table, then perhaps we'll have a better idea where/if he's worth taking. And of course he looks pretty cool, which is a great reason to play with a model. Straks feat gives everything +4 inches so thats a possibility, but only on Melee Jacks I think. True, that will be a big help, but without free charges (which I don't think his feat gives to non-battlegroup jacks) the marshaled jacks aren't going to do as much damage as I would like. Actually, let's math it out a bit. Let's say a Juggernaut using Crush, and spending the Empower focus to charge, against an ARM 19 heavy (assuming all attacks hit): First attack is P+S 21 with boosted damage = 12.5 damage on average. Second attack is P+S 17 = 5 damage on average. Third attack is P+S 21 = 9 damage on average. Total is 26.5 damage; that's actually not bad, but not enough to one-round a heavy. A free charge (or focus from a second Forge Seer) would bring that up to 35.5 damage, which does the job. Meanwhile Malakov's Juggernaut would do 44.5 damage if the target has no armour buff. That kinda makes sense actually; the Forge Seer makes a good Jack Marshal in some lists (dependent on the caster, meta, theme list, and list pairing), but doesn't replace Malakov. Or you just take him to help some casters run their battlegroups. A single extra focus can be significant on Karchev's feat turn, for example (although maybe not worth the points considering most people just want to take more jacks with him?).
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Post by skathrex on Mar 23, 2017 10:33:31 GMT
I wouldn't exactly say that I'm underwhelmed, I'm just not sure I have a place for him in my lists. He seems like a model who can solve some problems or fill a niche, but who doesn't necessarily make sense in every list. Honestly, I'm OK with that. Plus, this is all theory; when people who actually know what they're doing (so people other than me) start putting him on the table, then perhaps we'll have a better idea where/if he's worth taking. And of course he looks pretty cool, which is a great reason to play with a model. Straks feat gives everything +4 inches so thats a possibility, but only on Melee Jacks I think. True, that will be a big help, but without free charges (which I don't think his feat gives to non-battlegroup jacks) the marshaled jacks aren't going to do as much damage as I would like. Actually, let's math it out a bit. Let's say a Juggernaut using Crush, and spending the Empower focus to charge, against an ARM 19 heavy (assuming all attacks hit): First attack is P+S 21 with boosted damage = 12.5 damage on average. Second attack is P+S 17 = 5 damage on average. Third attack is P+S 21 = 9 damage on average. Total is 26.5 damage; that's actually not bad, but not enough to one-round a heavy. A free charge (or focus from a second Forge Seer) would bring that up to 35.5 damage, which does the job. Meanwhile Malakov's Juggernaut would do 44.5 damage if the target has no armour buff. That kinda makes sense actually; the Forge Seer makes a good Jack Marshal in some lists (dependent on the caster, meta, theme list, and list pairing), but doesn't replace Malakov. Or you just take him to help some casters run their battlegroups. A single extra focus can be significant on Karchev's feat turn, for example (although maybe not worth the points considering most people just want to take more jacks with him?). The look definatly helps, and as a Strakov fan I could definatly use at least 1 but my reaction is pretty meh. As for your Math, I am not entirly sure if Strakovs fead gives free charges etc. but doesn't crush let the marshaled jack charge for free? Or was that a diffrent one?
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 23, 2017 12:19:44 GMT
Crush gives +2 Str (or to melee damage rolls, whatever) and an extra attack. Press Forwards (I think, don't remember the name) is a free run, or a free charge with a boosted charge attack. Strike True is +2 to all attack rolls. Take Aim is if the jack sacrifices it's movement to aim, in addition to the normal +2 to the attack roll it also gets +2 to all damage rolls on it's ranged attacks (I think all ranged attacks?).
So if you want to charge and use Crush you either need to spend Focus to charge, or you need some source of free charges like Boundless Charge. This is one reason why Khador has not been as good at jack-marshalling this edition until now: no Aggressive or Accumulator jacks (plus no good Drives). The Forge Seer is the first good jack marshal we have, but imho he still needs some added support to be able to run a melee jack well enough (so a Boundless Charge caster or a second Forge Seer for a second point of focus). Which is fine; you can marshal a jack fairly well in Cygnar but you still need at least 8 points of solos to do it (the marshal himself and Lanyssa for free charges and/or a model the jack can Accumulator off and/or Arlan for Empower). At that point Crush and the Drive can allow the jack to operate better than he would in a "vanilla" battlegroup (by which I mean a battlegroup under a caster with no particularly good warjack buffs), at the cost of several support models.
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Post by Cryptix on Mar 23, 2017 12:23:38 GMT
Right, I was thinking of Drago for some reason. Yeah, Marauders are probably perfect - can slam and then get +2 to the damage roll, and an initial.
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Post by khadorjack on Mar 23, 2017 13:48:46 GMT
Everything ok, but i think we are in the moment when also a MoW army will be AT LEAST base SPD6 or more (kovnik+various SPD buffs), having a SPD4 jackmarshal is not so exciting. Yes, it gives magical weapons to ranged jacks, but i don't think playing 2 of them to actually make a decimator works fine is totally worth it.
Maybe a destroyer? With empower you can boost to hit and if you use take aim you have +2 RAT and +2 to all the ranged damage rolls, so blasts became POW 9 magical attacks that ignores magical ARM buffs. Also a behemoth take really advantage from this, and with crush you still have 3 initials, magical and POW14 armor piercing. The empower focus is used to charge.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 23, 2017 13:55:11 GMT
Looking at him, Beserkers could work as well as sacrifical missiles. 3 Attacks at P+S 19. I think that's P+S 18? At MAT 5? Take a Marauder for one point more and you at least get MAT 7, plus more armour, extra dice against Colossals, and the option to slam stuff. Agree with all. I think a key word of wisdome here is that you can use them as a foundation piece in an anti-menoth build which then allows you to build a second list (B3? S1? V1 to an extent) that does not really want to see Menoth. In my own little neck of the woods I have 2 players that are on the Reclaimer1/2 and Harby infantry-machine game as a rock-paper-scissors counter to Arm spam with more weaponmasters in all forms. This starts to help because you can put damage on the jacks to take them out of the end game. One thing I want to think/test out some more is putting TORCH under once of them. Defensively useful against menoth but where the jack will really shine is agains the Ghost Boat. Seeing a lot of interest in that among Cryx players that are left.
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Post by khador247 on Mar 23, 2017 14:48:31 GMT
My initial reaction is a bit of mixed bag. I like the fact that he's 4 points for a model that has ARM 16 and 8 boxes. Battle Wizard is cool. Empower is cool. I'm disappointed that its ability to give out magical damage is a drive. Hoarfrost is good. I'd prefer a spray but still good. Winter's Wind feels meh unless we get a huge based model with immunity cold then it will be like Conquest under Sorscha2's bond in MKII and I'd be all over that.
The caster that he appears to shine with is Zerkova2. She hasn't really interested me until now but between her Sacrificial Lamb spell that gives a focus to each of her jacks on top of Power Up was already nice. Now with 2 of these guys you can hand out two more focus to jacks. So you can have her slinging spells AND have a good sized warjack arsenal that is getting a lot of focus. Plus Occult Whispers and her feat work well with him.
Basically I like the model so much that I'll find ways to make him fit into lists. His ability to hand out magic attacks will probably be more useful in the MOW theme force as I'm guessing it won't be very magicy otherwise. Guess I need to brush up on my MKIII jack marshaling rules.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Mar 23, 2017 14:57:41 GMT
Funnily Enough HE was what the Jack Marshalling Rules where Waiting For. Because with him unless the warcaster gives something really critical to the Jack it may just be better to Run the Jack Marshalled. Because the extra attack you get combines with a +2 Melee Damage Buff.
Not Bad.
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Post by khadorjack on Mar 23, 2017 15:15:57 GMT
I think i'll like him with Strakhov1. This guy marshalling a behemoth can makes wonders, and still BigB has a decent threat range thanks to the feat. But people will try to shoot him out the table.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Mar 23, 2017 16:40:18 GMT
Funnily Enough HE was what the Jack Marshalling Rules where Waiting For. Because with him unless the warcaster gives something really critical to the Jack it may just be better to Run the Jack Marshalled. Because the extra attack you get combines with a +2 Melee Damage Buff. Not Bad. Yeah, the empower+marshall bonus equates to full load basically. Putting the kovnik aside consider a following list type: Caster with army-wide buff (Vlad1, Kozlov, B1-2, Sorscha2, etc.) -2 jacks Seer 1 + jack Seer 2 + jack Malakov + jack You now have 5 roughly fully loaded jacks, all with meaningful buffs and topped off with army-wide buff from caster. That opens up a playable jack spam list with much more casters than just jack-specialized ones. Empower even makes mow kovnik marshalling not bad. Mow kovnik and Seer both babysitting a jack do make it better than a caster without a battlegroup buff. Sure, you pay pts for it until mow theme comes out, but at least you pay those pts for something that's an improvement.
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Post by kovnikninehouse on Mar 23, 2017 21:54:31 GMT
All the talk of Strakhov making good use of the extra focus but about this guy?
War Room Army
Khador - Hark's jack wall now with free solos
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf - WJ: +28 - War Dog - PC: 0 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Rager - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Destroyer - PC: 14 - Behemoth - PC: 25
Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0
Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
THEME: Jaws of the Wolf ---
GENERATED : 03/23/2017 17:53:17 BUILD ID : 2037.17-02-13
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Post by skathrex on Mar 24, 2017 10:19:46 GMT
I think i'll like him with Strakhov1. This guy marshalling a behemoth can makes wonders, and still BigB has a decent threat range thanks to the feat. But people will try to shoot him out the table. Are you mad man! BigB needs to be in Strakov BG to trigger Overrun. I agree that he is good with Strakov for the additional Focus, but I wouldn't Marshal anything with him, because Strakov wants to have everything in his BG. With Z2 I see the problem of Focus overflow (yeah thats a first). Between Sac Lamb and 2-4 Empowers WHAT THE HELL YOU WANT TO FUEL!!! You can Fuel 4 Juggers with that, which all need to have a usefule target. Or you could just take 4 Destroyers instead which have all the Focus they need without the Seer. I like Jaws with Seer and Strakov 1, but I would inlcude some support. Even with 2 Seers Strak can't fuel all the Jacks: conflictchamber.com/#b31b_-0x7c7w0d0d7s8ChFhF8r878G8G8eKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf !!! Your army contains pre-release entries. !!! You are using a pre-release theme. (Strakhov 1) Kommander Oleg Strakhov [+28] - Behemoth [25] - Juggernaut [12] - Juggernaut [12] - Kodiak [13] - Torch [18] Greylord Forge Seer [0] Greylord Forge Seer [0] Widowmaker Marksman [0] Battle Mechaniks (max) [5] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Widowmaker Scouts [8]
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