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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 3, 2021 11:38:02 GMT
Do we think Iron Fangs are in a better place now? I can't quite bring myself to say 'good place', but their main in-faction competition (Doom Reavers) was more or less the only unit that didn't get buffed or a price drop. So they've gotten notably cheaper, Shield Wall has made them faster, Unyielding means they can top ARM20 in melee without caster assistance, Skirova still makes them essentially MAT8. I think Uhlans are now the second cheapest heavy cavalry after Steelheads.
They still suffer from having no shooting, jack support, or magic attacks, but they've got me wondering again.
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Post by michael on Nov 3, 2021 12:56:36 GMT
I honestly have no idea about Iron Fangs right now. They have been out of my mind for so long that I can’t estimate the impact of the changes. I would need to play them to find out.
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Post by Havock on Nov 3, 2021 14:47:52 GMT
I don't see a lot of improvements. Sure, it's all a little cheaper but it doesn't solve their issues.
The updated Thamarite Advocates do mean you could run my old all-in setup better: take three cheap beater heavies, wrap in Iron Fangs.
Even then, I think Wolves still does everything LOS does.
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Post by michael on Nov 3, 2021 16:54:39 GMT
I’m going to have to sit down and compare a current Legion of Steel list with a Claws of the Dragon list.
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Post by Havock on Nov 3, 2021 17:36:47 GMT
I don't think that's even useful anymore, we're full and well into this edition and the meta is radically different.
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Post by michael on Nov 3, 2021 20:23:56 GMT
Eh. Claws of the Dragon was the gold standard for IFP. Gotta start somewhere.
At first blush, it looks like LoS is maybe 4-5 points shy* of what Claws allowed you to field. I just built a LoS list and was short either one CA or an Iron Fang Kovnik or so. I remember being able to field three tricked-out IFP units, plus Uhlans and Markov, plus two Kovniks way back when. I couldn’t squeeze in both Markov and Sofya. Markov himself could probably stand to come down to 5-6 points or even be a requisition choice.
But anyway…
* With the acknowledged caveat that you get more warjacks now. Butcher had 6 WJP in MK II so he only ever took one jack back then anyway.
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Post by Havock on Nov 3, 2021 21:31:18 GMT
Yeah, as is there is little reason not to take three heavies; it goes over your wjp a little but they do so much late game work.
~8 points of juggernaut > 8 points of iron fang.
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Post by The Snark Knight on Nov 4, 2021 20:12:30 GMT
Eh. Claws of the Dragon was the gold standard for IFP. Gotta start somewhere. At first blush, it looks like LoS is maybe 4-5 points shy* of what Claws allowed you to field. I just built a LoS list and was short either one CA or an Iron Fang Kovnik or so. I remember being able to field three tricked-out IFP units, plus Uhlans and Markov, plus two Kovniks way back when. I couldn’t squeeze in both Markov and Sofya. Markov himself could probably stand to come down to 5-6 points or even be a requisition choice. But anyway… * With the acknowledged caveat that you get more warjacks now. Butcher had 6 WJP in MK II so he only ever took one jack back then anyway. I ran Claws of the Dragon with a dog, two Devastators, 2 Black Dragons + UA, 2 Standard Pikemen + UA, Kovniks, and Great Bears. Looks like I gained Sofiya and lost Great Bears with a few points to spare? I may need to actually do math or open War Room 1...
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Post by michael on Nov 4, 2021 22:37:20 GMT
I keep thinking about what I’d like to see on the Great Bears. I genuinely can’t decide. I keep thinking about adding Weaponmaster so they are just straight up bonkers damage dealers. Then I think about Precision Strike, and also Imperishable Conviction.
Then I remember that I haven’t used these guys since I don’t know when, so maybe I am not the best judge.
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Post by Havock on Nov 4, 2021 23:18:46 GMT
Flank with any Iron Fang is a good start.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Nov 5, 2021 4:32:15 GMT
I think comparing the LoS to old themes is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. And looking at just points or new Merc add-ons is turning a blind eye to the 2 changes that made a real impact for the IFP: the change to the shield wall rules and the changes to the Iron Fang Kovnik.
The Shield wall rule makes them effectively SPD 9 when they are in shield wall. SPD 9 / ARM 18 is not too bad. Put the spell Tactical Supremacy on them and they can go SPD 12 with ARM 18.
Make sure the Kovnik keeps up - when the IFP get into melee their ARM could get as high as 20 with Shield Wall and Unyielding. I think the Kovnik changes have made him a more important piece in the army than before. Oh, don't forget he helps the Uhlans also.
A lot of the changes made in this latest update were small changes that, when you throw a theme army together like Legion of Steel or Sons of the Tempest, all of the small changes come together to make that theme army better.
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Post by michael on Nov 15, 2021 17:30:26 GMT
While it is true that IFP got faster, sort of, I am honestly not sure how useful that is. The problem I always had with Iron Fangs was the “volume of attacks” issue, and the “guns guns guns, any covering fire and we’re screwed” issue. Let me think this through.
So, at deployment, barring any advance move, players are 31” apart.
IFP threat 11” on a charge. That is basically static, outside of Kozlov1’s feat and Quicken from Strakhov2.
Turn 1, they advance in Shield Wall 9”. This puts the leading IFP at either the 16” line if they went first, or the 19” line if they went second. They are contesting or controlling all the objectives on the IFP player’s side of the table.
The leading models are separated by at least 22” at this point. The opponent goes. If they brought guns, I am assuming a fairly generic SPD 6 RNG 14 for the guns. So the lead IFP are probably not in range yet, but are close.
If I were the hypothetical unidentified player 2, I would send my melee dudes up slightly less than 11”, with my guns behind. The next turn, once scoring is live, the IFP can’t reach me in melee, and the best they can do is advance + blow the Mini feat to Reposition 5 into engagement. The Black Dragons could blow a mini feat and run, but more or less the same difference. The IFP are not attacking my stuff unless I allow it.
I go. My melee dudes hit the IFP. Even at DEF 12 ARM 20, I can feel reasonably confident that any hits result in dead IFP, so rolling a hypothetical 6 to hit on the charge is the biggest hurdle. I feel confident that my generic melee dudes kill IFP 1-to-1 on the charge if they hit.
I then use my guns to blow away the second wave of IFP, the ones who were going to counterattack my first wave of melee dudes. DEF 12 ARM 18 versus generic POW 12 guns does not look good. Any specialty tech I have is going to go into the IFP second wave. I feel pretty good about bringing it down.
Attrition is probably not looking great for IFP here, as I got the first hit against them, and they basically had to walk into me.
If they didn’t, then they have ceded some control points to me.
Scenario… So scenario is probably looking OK. The IFP player has control of the stuff on his side. He probably lost his objective to my guns, whereas mine is probably safe until T3 at the earliest.
Heaven help the IFP player if I brought Covering Fire, clouds, or auto-damage clouds/shots/etc. Covering Fire completely shuts down the IFP army. Even minifeated Black Dragons are going to think twice before running through an automatic POW 10 or 12 at ARM 17.
After that it gets far too complicated to game out generically, so I can’t comment.
Is the game plan above significantly different than it was before the October 2021 change? Hmm. I am not sure.
This definitely requires table time to feel out.
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Post by Havock on Nov 15, 2021 17:36:50 GMT
It's why Zerkova1 is the only one capable of really running that list, it has no tech, they Ned to get across. She does that.
And it's not a sure thing.
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Post by michael on Nov 15, 2021 23:31:31 GMT
It's why Zerkova1 is the only one capable of really running that list, it has no tech, they Ned to get across. She does that. And it's not a sure thing. That’s been one of my issues with Z1 since time immemorial: she has a feat, and…then what? To me, she always felt like she needed a damage buff or something more beyond her defensive/control kit. Can IFP seal the deal without the charge bonus or Fury or something? It’s iffy. Related: I think Z1 definitely feels better after the QOL update! The Thamarite Advocates are interesting, and the fix to Grave Door has been long overdue!
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Post by Havock on Nov 16, 2021 5:45:43 GMT
Yeah the advocates are fantastic. She also has clouds and ghost walk; the latter is always great, I used her with three beater jacks to good effect (prior to the list just getting powercrept): Lategame she just focus-batteries the three jacks and hands out ghost walk, she's perfectly capable of doing that.
Even so, Armored Corps and Wolves do everything you really want LOS to do, so... Made a tryout on the Discord;
3x min shocks + UA are just as expensive as double max +UA but slightly more flexible, you can probably do that without much hassle though. You basically swap one normal shocktrooper for an extra Officer in this setup, also less vulnerable to unit-screwing spells and the like.
By and large the force is fairly self-sufficient; you can easily top off your jacks with your not!Empower, you have a decent gun platform that hits stupidly hard in melee and Ragman plays very well with MOW. I suppose you could drop the Kodiak to something like, say, a Rager and get some mechanics in there.
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