shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 11:49:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by shmeep on Jan 21, 2020 11:49:26 GMT
Haha, yeah. Give her Elite Cadre: Meat Threshers gain Heart Eater. That'll see some use Almost wish they gave her a unique spell that gives a beast or BE +str/speed and boiling blood. Feels thematic enough to me. Run 'em hot, make it boil!
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 11:56:28 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 21, 2020 11:56:28 GMT
A friend suggested giving her Stoke the Fires...
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 12:26:35 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 21, 2020 12:26:35 GMT
So in tonight's game I managed to get Helga's stats down to 13/14. If my opponent had been able to Bulldoze my Hermit a tad closer she could have ended up at an entirely self-inflicted 13/12.
...Look, I know it's not great on her, but I do want her to keep Primed. It's funny. Maybe give her Double Strike or Snap Strike or something? That makes up for the loss of Flashing Blade without interacting with the Feat.
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 12:44:29 GMT
via mobile
Post by custardboy on Jan 21, 2020 12:44:29 GMT
I want to keep it too, but it would take a total redesign to make it a good spell on her.
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 13:02:03 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 21, 2020 13:02:03 GMT
You know, weirdly, I've been finding that she kinda hits hard enough in the games I've played. Which have all been into Khador so far. 2/3 games into a Karchev 'jack brick. The issue is more that to enable her army to crack armour is that the Warlock who should least like Boomhowler2, and honestly shouldn't have much use for Ledfoot and Tredz (if only she were a medium base ), feels compelled to take both because it's the only way she hits hard enough. She is also yet to actually kill anything beyond the odd warrior model herself. Puts out a fair bit of hurt, but she's cast Lightning Strike once so far in three games. Every other time I've had to count on the Feat to back up to safety.
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 13:04:17 GMT
via mobile
Post by custardboy on Jan 21, 2020 13:04:17 GMT
Your second paragraph sounds the opposite of the first. Or did you mean her army by 'her?' I want to try out 4-5 War hogs with her. Redundancy on those is too important.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 13:36:57 GMT
via mobile
Post by shmeep on Jan 21, 2020 13:36:57 GMT
Spell that gives +2 STR +2SPD and unstable to a beast! Or maybe just give her a version of primed that says 'target model in the battlegroup'?
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 20:26:32 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 21, 2020 20:26:32 GMT
Your second paragraph sounds the opposite of the first. Or did you mean her army by 'her?' I want to try out 4-5 War hogs with her. Redundancy on those is too important. Yeah, basically mean "her army". In game number three she put enough damage into a pair of Khador heavies that a nearby War Hog was able to kill them both, which was reasonable at least.
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 21:05:04 GMT
via mobile
Post by custardboy on Jan 21, 2020 21:05:04 GMT
I played her into armour once and she was barely able to kill a warmonger and couldn't kill a tentacle (separate activations with engine, damn tentacles). Was that including your ridiculous debuff package?
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 21:14:23 GMT
via mobile
Post by custardboy on Jan 21, 2020 21:14:23 GMT
Spell that gives +2 STR +2SPD and unstable to a beast! Or maybe just give her a version of primed that says 'target model in the battlegroup'? I really like both this and stoke the fires but I don't see her getting another speed buff.
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 21:23:38 GMT
via mobile
Post by Azahul on Jan 21, 2020 21:23:38 GMT
I played her into armour once and she was barely able to kill a warmonger and couldn't kill a tentacle (separate activations with engine, damn tentacles). Was that including your ridiculous debuff package? Oh yes. Ledfoot, Hermit, and a Void Archon had to run around playing set-up.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 22:03:26 GMT
Post by shmeep on Jan 21, 2020 22:03:26 GMT
how about comparing numbers? I love Barnie2, even if I've never played him yet, but he's a hell of a beatstick on paper, so let's compare: Barnie has 7 FURY, spd 5, MAT 8, a 2' axe hitting at base P+S 15, and a '0.5 bite hitting at P+S 14 + grievous. Threatens 10', but really you're looking at 8.5' if you want the full package and that sweet, sweet grievous. If Barnie's charging and you don't have a bone shaker around, you're probably losing - so that gives you dark shroud for a P17 hit at 10', P16 bite at 8.5'. The soul slave is an auto include - if you can land the Hunter's Mark at boosted MA 4, you're looking at +2' charge range. so 12' axe, 10.5' bite. You're likely upkeeping Onslaught for free, so you have pathfinder. Boil Master's also an auto include, and the more I think about it, the more I wonder if a second one isn't mandatory as well. Fogel might be onto something there, d3 corpse tokens a round isn't nearly as consistent as 2d3. Fully fed on corpses, Barnie's hitting at P20 on the axe, P19 on the bite. I thought it'd be neat if you included Ledfoot into the equation, but I only found out now that Barnie's on a 50mm base. Awkward. Since Helga will use the hermit, I'll include him in this equation as well. +2 damage. Under ideal circumstances, you can tag a target 10.5' away with a MAT8 P21 with Grievous, then follow up with 8 P22, and if you haven't popped feat yet and want to really put on your big boy pants you can rain down another 7 P22s.
Helga2 - FURY 6, spd 7, MAT 7, 2' and pull on a P10 chain, 1' on a P12 bat, and P12 on the impact attack. Threat range is 12' against everything that isn't collosal or immovable, 10.5' for the full package if they are. Let's say she's also got the soul slave and upkeeps Primed. we're up to MAT 9, P12, P14, P12. she's also suffering -2 arm. she casts Engine of Destruction. Minions have no spell cost mitigation as far as I'm aware, so we're down to 4 FURY. We're up to SPD 9, MAT 13, P16, P18, still P12. Threatens 14', 12.5' now. Next we have the Void Archon, which I honestly think is mandatory in any semi competitive minions list (thanks, power creep.). +2 damage brings us up to P18, P20, P14. This is still also still very much within reasonable bounds, the Void is not a hard piece to get places. If you're using Azahul's slingshot package, you're projecting the hermit's aura 13' up. Helga2 is guaranteed to be inside the bubble unless she sprints or pops feat. another +2 DMG, and we're up to -4 arm if she doesn't scoot. If you've somehow got the points to shove Lanyssa in there, and she actually lands her hunter's mark, that's another +2'. So under ideal circumstances - charge in 16', or 14.5' if Garg/Immovable, but within 13' of the hermit, put out a MAT13 POW 20, POW22, POW16, then up to 3-4 MAT13 POW 22s, depending on whether or not you've got feat.
Anything else I've missed in the equation? I'm not completely sold on whether you really want the Hermit package, it seems like a massive investment, Boomie2 and Ledfoot are good work pieces, but they have zero synergy with Helga2, at least Barnie2 gives them defense buffs (along with Wrongeye). Two Void Archons seems mandatory to me. That's also just the offensive numbers, you also have a lot of consideration to put into the counterpunch. Just looking at how much work they can theoretically get in at this point - Barnie can sit on 4 FURY after blowing his stack and feating, with +2 DEF/+4 DEF vs living(swarm), whereas Helga can be up to 9' away from her target if she feats. Barnie can also potentially spread his debuffs a lot wider than Helga, while Helga needs to spends her entire package only on herself for these number to work. in a vacuum - Barnie2 hits MAT8, P15+P14, 8.5', 7 fury - Helga2 (engined) hits MAT11, P14+P16+P12, 12', 4 fury.
Helga also doesn't hands out free charges, but she does give pathfinder for free to her beasts whereas Barnie doesn't, so I feel that Lanyssa is a very important piece for her.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 22:10:06 GMT
Post by shmeep on Jan 21, 2020 22:10:06 GMT
I think Helga definitely needs some way to boost her Battlegroup's damage output, having an impact attack and boosted charge attack rolls isn't quite enough. I don't think Dark Shroud is the way to go, Barnie2 already has it and I think it hurts his viability since it doesn't synergize with the Void Archon, which from everything I've seen is possibly the strongest single model in minions right now.
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 22:18:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by Azahul on Jan 21, 2020 22:18:10 GMT
Not including the Bone Shakers in Barnanbus's vacuum damage seems odd? They are effectively part of him.
The Hermit slingshot is 15" threat, not 13" I agree that it sucks to bring Ledfoot and Boomie2 with Helga, but being able to project Master of Ruin that far up the table is the only reason I feel I've been getting work done so far.
Has anyone played a game with her where she loses the alpha strike? Or into a gunlines? Seems like it should happen relatively easily, and I've no idea how she responds if that happens. My games have all been into Khador so far so I haven't seen it yet.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 22:24:52 GMT
via mobile
Post by shmeep on Jan 21, 2020 22:24:52 GMT
Not including the Bone Shakers in Barnanbus's vacuum damage seems odd? They are effectively part of him. The Hermit slingshot is 15" threat, not 13" I agree that it sucks to bring Ledfoot and Boomie2 with Helga, but being able to project Master of Ruin that far up the table is the only reason I feel I've been getting work done so far. Has anyone played a game with her where she loses the alpha strike? Or into a gunlines? Seems like it should happen relatively easily, and I've no idea how she responds if that happens. My games have all been into Khador so far so I haven't seen it yet. >he gets in games
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