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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 22:39:38 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 21, 2020 22:39:38 GMT
Just on the Void Archon note, as good as they are I would prefer to have a Warlock who could function without them on the table. They're good, no question, but they're mostly optimal into a specific range of defensive stat values and enemy types, and Souls aren't always easy to come by. If they end up being used primarily for their Dark Shroud, they compare extremely poorly to Ragman. In my view they're a shoe-in for one list in a two list pair, but I'd rather leave them out of the second list simply due to the fact that they fall off in effectiveness in certain match-ups. Like custardboy, I'd rather she had a way to function as a Road Hog/Meat Thresher Warlock rather than a Void Archon Warlock.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 22:51:34 GMT
via mobile
Post by shmeep on Jan 21, 2020 22:51:34 GMT
Just on the Void Archon note, as good as they are I would prefer to have a Warlock who could function without them on the table. They're good, no question, but they're mostly optimal into a specific range of defensive stat values and enemy types, and Souls aren't always easy to come by. If they end up being used primarily for their Dark Shroud, they compare extremely poorly to Ragman. In my view they're a shoe-in for one list in a two list pair, but I'd rather leave them out of the second list simply due to the fact that they fall off in effectiveness in certain match-ups. Like custardboy, I'd rather she had a way to function as a Road Hog/Meat Thresher Warlock rather than a Void Archon Warlock. That's what I said too. She was advertised as a BG caster, let her be one. There's a reason I keep parroting ideas for model rather than unit damage buffs. If you could adjust her spell list, what would you do?
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 23:23:09 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 21, 2020 23:23:09 GMT
I like the idea of upping her armour by one and giving her Stoke the Fires instead of Battle Host the more I think about it. Something for the Soul Slave to do, it has actual synergy with her Feat, and it means you're less likely to end having to predict whether you want Primed or Battle Host on her on a critical turn. Boosted Crit Knockdown Counter Charges also mean you can at least present a thorny problem to your opponent if they have the longer threat ranges.
The damage front is tough. Personally, I really want her to be a super solo who doesn't need a battlegroup so much, so I'd like to see improvements to her base stats most of all (+1-+2 to each of her weapons' POW), or else the addition of some special rule that makes up for the loss of Flashing Blade. My playtesting opponent suggested Double Strike or Snap Strike, which would be a huge boost to her output but... perhaps a little less so than it initially seems, since she'll only have 4 Fury, 5 max with a Bone Shrine, and will ideally want to be spending one on Sprint (outside of Feat turn) and have 1-2 to camp. I think that would be enough?
At that point her army still feels vulnerable to guns, but I straight up can't think of a way to fix that with any approximation of her current kit, but it probably does enough damage and has a kind of answer to lists with 13"+ threat ranges.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Helga2
Jan 22, 2020 0:07:41 GMT
via mobile
Post by shmeep on Jan 22, 2020 0:07:41 GMT
Have you sent Hungerford a mail? Honestly, I don't think I know enough about the game yet to make direct suggestions to the devs.
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Helga2
Jan 22, 2020 0:10:08 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 22, 2020 0:10:08 GMT
Have you sent Hungerford a mail? Honestly, I don't think I know enough about the game yet to make direct suggestions to the devs. I sent him some preliminary thoughts after my first few games. I'll follow up again once I've got full battle reports to link him to
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Helga2
Jan 22, 2020 1:09:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by custardboy on Jan 22, 2020 1:09:10 GMT
Could you post his email address please?
I really like stoke the fires for her. Unfortunately escort is better, she won't get both, and it doesn't help the meat thresher or fix her damage issues. Abuse may be more practical, though not so thematic.
Dark Shroud is ideal for the meat thresher (averages an extra 8 damage vs a big target), helps the road hog hit hard, helps her hit hard, and is very handy for spreading around with reposition everywhere. It's just not terribly thematic. I think we all agree that if she wants to fix up road hogs and meat threshers, she needs an output buff for them. I was looking for an ability that is specifically good on those pieces.
What do you guys think about cutting escort and putting the +2 movement on wild ride, so she doesn't need a spell for it and it helps meat threshers?
A friend of mine suggested Vortex of Destruction which I really quite like but doesn't help the road hog/meat thresher issue.
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Helga2
Jan 22, 2020 1:58:15 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 22, 2020 1:58:15 GMT
Could you post his email address please? hungerford@privateerpress.com I really like stoke the fires for her. Unfortunately escort is better, she won't get both, and it doesn't help the meat thresher or fix her damage issues. Abuse may be more practical, though not so thematic. Dark Shroud is ideal for the meat thresher (averages an extra 8 damage vs a big target), helps the road hog hit hard, helps her hit hard, and is very handy for spreading around with reposition everywhere. It's just not terribly thematic. I think we all agree that if she wants to fix up road hogs and meat threshers, she needs an output buff for them. I was looking for an ability that is specifically good on those pieces. What do you guys think about cutting escort and putting the +2 movement on wild ride, so she doesn't need a spell for it and it helps meat threshers? A friend of mine suggested Vortex of Destruction which I really quite like but doesn't help the road hog/meat thresher issue. I think Scything Touch is better than +2 movement on Wild Ride for helping the Meat Thresher, its issue in my experience has always been more about struggling into armour and being hamstrung by immunity to knockdown than threat range really (at least since it went to effectively Speed 8 in the Battle Engine CID). But I'm all for not having to spend Fury to get the +2 Movement on her battlegroup, it lets her toss Primed on herself or whatever to her hearts content.
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Helga2
Jan 22, 2020 2:42:35 GMT
via mobile
Post by custardboy on Jan 22, 2020 2:42:35 GMT
Everyone I've heard from that has playtested meat threshers with her has found them entirely underwhelming. The +2 movement along with cavalry would put them in a fairly strong place as they would out threat many things. Rask and Sturm can already cause that threat range easily (even with fury/polarity shield) and they don't tend to use threshers either, so I would assume +2 movement would be balanced.
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Helga2
Jan 22, 2020 3:08:42 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 22, 2020 3:08:42 GMT
That's not surprising, you weren't wrong when you said that she barely pulls a Meat Thresher up to where it should be baseline with her buffs, so they're basically unsupported Battle Engines with her. Short of giving a Meat Thresher some kind of token mechanic (I honestly wasn't joking about Heart Eater ) I'm not sure what she could do to make one genuinely tempting.
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Helga2
Jan 22, 2020 3:30:42 GMT
via mobile
Post by custardboy on Jan 22, 2020 3:30:42 GMT
Dark Shroud and +2 movement 😂😂 Hot shot would be good but that's battlegroup. Also, the idea is to make it good in melee I think.
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Helga2
Jan 22, 2020 3:34:40 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 22, 2020 3:34:40 GMT
Making the gun better wouldn't be a bad way to go honestly. It's likely to be the best shooting platform in Helga's army, if she could tune it up somehow (give it boosts/debuff enemy armour) then taking two to skirmish with the enemy early game would feel pretty good. Relegate the melee to emergencies.
That's more or less how I play them anyway when I do put them on the table, it's just in this situation they'd have Repo.
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Helga2
Jan 22, 2020 3:47:15 GMT
via mobile
Post by custardboy on Jan 22, 2020 3:47:15 GMT
That's how Turtles play. Shoot and scoot around with 11" tramples and 3" Reposition, then eventually charge in and murder the world. Of course we don't want the thresher to be as obscene as the most overpowered model in the game 😕
Jaga Jaga doesn't field them with SnP nor Caliban with Parasite so what spell would even do it though?
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Helga2
Jan 22, 2020 3:50:30 GMT
via mobile
Post by shmeep on Jan 22, 2020 3:50:30 GMT
How about giving them tokens like Baldur/Locke? I.e. at start of activatiom you may roll d3, gain that many tokens and take that much damage.
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Helga2
Jan 22, 2020 4:08:42 GMT
via mobile
Post by custardboy on Jan 22, 2020 4:08:42 GMT
Tokens and such would be cool and all, but I don't think they'll look at any real fixes to the meat thresher for a while. I think it's more of a discussion on how she can make it a strong piece.
Also, we'd end up talking about this other topic, that would end up talking about more models, and fill the entire forum 😂
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Helga2
Jan 22, 2020 4:14:47 GMT
via mobile
Post by shmeep on Jan 22, 2020 4:14:47 GMT
Tokens and such would be cool and all, but I don't think they'll look at any real fixes to the meat thresher for a while. I think it's more of a discussion on how she can make it a strong piece. Also, we'd end up talking about this other topic, that would end up talking about more models, and fill the entire forum 😂 I meant if that were included as part of the wild ride package, but I get what you mean.
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