vomath
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 53
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Helga2
Jan 20, 2020 4:32:03 GMT
via mobile
Post by vomath on Jan 20, 2020 4:32:03 GMT
Ah, makes sense. I don't see the Hermit listed there, so I was confused.
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Helga2
Jan 20, 2020 4:46:08 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 20, 2020 4:46:08 GMT
Hahaha... let me double check to make sure that's an accidental omission and not a product of me failing to actually put him in the list.
Edit: Yeah, I just forgot to write him down. That list also has the Hermit.
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Helga2
Jan 20, 2020 12:37:44 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 20, 2020 12:37:44 GMT
Well, I'll be aiming to test her tonight. Forgot to pack any Valkyries or a Bone Shrine for the game, so I whipped together a list based on what I actually had with me. I don't think this is totally unreasonable: Helga2 -War Hog -War Hog -Road Hog -Road Hog -Battle Boar -Soul Slave Bellows Crew HermitLedfoot and Tredz Eilish Boomhowler2 Void Archon Meat Thresher I think the second War Hog might need to become a unit of Valkyries (to have any hope of realistically keeping Helga alive), a Bone Shrine, and Lanyssa, though I don't like how fragile the list begins to feel at that point. So I played this list twice tonight. I actually think it's remarkably close to a well-rounded list for her, having put it on the table. No Valkyries is a pain, mind you. I'd definitely swap the Bellows Crew for a Bone Shrine, but other than that the only change I can think of would be to swap the Meat Thresher for a second Void Archon and a unit of Valkyries. On the good news front, I enjoyed playing her more than I anticipated. On the downside, my opponent in both games kind of fed me models for her to kill, and I was able to get multiple rounds of work out of Hermit and the Void Archon to really chew through enemy armour, so I don't know how "normal" that experience will be. As to be expected, the Meat Thresher's output was pretty minimal, probably doing a grand total of 10 damage across both games. Still, she's at least entertaining to play. I just wish she had a tad more oomph so that my first step of listbuilding wasn't dropping 18 points on a -2 armour debuff...
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Helga2
Jan 20, 2020 14:17:31 GMT
Post by charlzheimer on Jan 20, 2020 14:17:31 GMT
im gonna try and make a list and play test it. make a battle report out of it and see what is what.
i think she is great and has potential. its gooing to be one of those casters where you cannot use the ENTIRE kit all the time how ever.
i'm thinking unit brigands, decent battle group with razor boars as jammers and (buy a turn) models. and a single BE.
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Helga2
Jan 20, 2020 14:35:24 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 20, 2020 14:35:24 GMT
Isn't taking a mix of infantry and Warbeasts and a Battle Engine trying to use the entire kit though? I'm more or less resigned to not getting use out of Primed (I think it has value on Helga herself if you are going second, so aren't looking to claim the additional table space with Escort, and don't feel like you're under serious assassination threat). I'm not sure what part of the kit you're choosing not to use though?
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Helga2
Jan 20, 2020 15:02:29 GMT
Post by charlzheimer on Jan 20, 2020 15:02:29 GMT
Isn't taking a mix of infantry and Warbeasts and a Battle Engine trying to use the entire kit though? I'm more or less resigned to not getting use out of Primed (I think it has value on Helga herself if you are going second, so aren't looking to claim the additional table space with Escort, and don't feel like you're under serious assassination threat). I'm not sure what part of the kit you're choosing not to use though? what i ment to say is that you won't use her entire kit the entire fight. but i think you can still build a list for it. on the other hand i might also just choose to run 2 valk units over a units of briggands. i unno. i'll Firetruck around with it...maybe i'm talking bs again
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Helga2
Jan 20, 2020 15:15:14 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 20, 2020 15:15:14 GMT
I just can't really imagine running her in Thornfall. She's already low output, P+S 16 and four Fury to play with means that she seems to end up Feating half the time just to let her get to safety without burning all her Fury (or even failing to kill her target and not having enough left to sprint). In Thornfall you'd be playing without Battle Host if you want to achieve the same output, and that's not even getting into the fact that Thornfall lacks ways to increase her output and get her to actually do work.
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Helga2
Jan 20, 2020 16:11:48 GMT
Post by charlzheimer on Jan 20, 2020 16:11:48 GMT
I just can't really imagine running her in Thornfall. She's already low output, P+S 16 and four Fury to play with means that she seems to end up Feating half the time just to let her get to safety without burning all her Fury (or even failing to kill her target and not having enough left to sprint). In Thornfall you'd be playing without Battle Host if you want to achieve the same output, and that's not even getting into the fact that Thornfall lacks ways to increase her output and get her to actually do work. A P+S 16 plus some extra attacks that can spike should be enough no? i mean granted its no dice+4 like on reznik but your not gooing to commit helga on a enemy caster that has full fury/focus and no damaged boxes. you got 12.5" threath on her grinding weel for a crit knockdown with 4 attack dice. (crit fishing shouldn't be impossible.) a chain attack of a pow 14 that should dent a caster and a decent pow 16. yes she only has 4 fury but again. propper models shouldn't be a issue. you have a pretty fast army and with the right list you should be able to do some real damage.
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Helga2
Jan 20, 2020 17:39:42 GMT
via mobile
Post by Corrupted Bauer on Jan 20, 2020 17:39:42 GMT
I just can't really imagine running her in Thornfall. She's already low output, P+S 16 and four Fury to play with means that she seems to end up Feating half the time just to let her get to safety without burning all her Fury (or even failing to kill her target and not having enough left to sprint). In Thornfall you'd be playing without Battle Host if you want to achieve the same output, and that's not even getting into the fact that Thornfall lacks ways to increase her output and get her to actually do work. A P+S 16 plus some extra attacks that can spike should be enough no? i mean granted its no dice+4 like on reznik but your not gooing to commit helga on a enemy caster that has full fury/focus and no damaged boxes. you got 12.5" threath on her grinding weel for a crit knockdown with 4 attack dice. (crit fishing shouldn't be impossible.) a chain attack of a pow 14 that should dent a caster and a decent pow 16. yes she only has 4 fury but again. propper models shouldn't be a issue. you have a pretty fast army and with the right list you should be able to do some real damage. You can’t use the mount on the charge unless it’s to impact attack. So fishing for crits is a lot less likely with 3 dice and unboostable in any other regard. It’s also only 12” threat since to make a impact attack you have to contact a model, not just get in melee range, so her personal output usually in any turns is realistically going to be without a mount attack so -1 possible attack
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 0:47:45 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 21, 2020 0:47:45 GMT
A P+S 16 plus some extra attacks that can spike should be enough no? i mean granted its no dice+4 like on reznik but your not gooing to commit helga on a enemy caster that has full fury/focus and no damaged boxes. you got 12.5" threath on her grinding weel for a crit knockdown with 4 attack dice. (crit fishing shouldn't be impossible.) a chain attack of a pow 14 that should dent a caster and a decent pow 16. yes she only has 4 fury but again. propper models shouldn't be a issue. you have a pretty fast army and with the right list you should be able to do some real damage. Depends on your definition of doing "enough" I suppose. She's not much of a super solo Warlock when she's not able to crack a heavy or an enemy Warlock, and in terms of army support (even in her preferred playstyle of hit-and-run) I think Carver comes out on top. My practice games so far have been into Khador, and the only reason she's been able to threaten enemy Warjacks is because of the absurd number of points sunk into making the Hermit's Master of Ruin relevant.
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 6:21:35 GMT
via mobile
Post by Corrupted Bauer on Jan 21, 2020 6:21:35 GMT
That’s why I’m still so up on readding flashing blade. It doesn’t buff the height of her damage, but the width of it and makes her threaten like half a unit instead of a heavy which is still more output
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 8:42:49 GMT
via mobile
Post by custardboy on Jan 21, 2020 8:42:49 GMT
I've been considering other directions quite a bit today. Here's where I'm at. I may have one more game to decide, but send in something like this.
She's supposed to turn up road hogs and meat threshers, apparently. She's supposed to have good personal ability and support hit and run.
Her personal output is decent (and specifically very good against average durability casters) but she can't take out heavies. Meat threshers and road hogs can't either. If you run out of war hogs and your opponent has a few marauders left, you've probably lost, so you need to take multiple war hogs.
Meat threshers simply aren't good battle engines. Wild ride just gives them some abilities they should have anyway, and escort and primed doesn't affect them. With her, they are a regular unsupported battle engine instead of a supported one.
Road hogs are a bit underpowered, and void Archons work better. You get two for the cost of a road hog, and unlike road hogs you can cast primed on them and they actually stack their own hit and run with the feat.
Primed is a good spell but it has no good targets in minions (outside of archons) and she brings nothing else for infantry. If we had grotesque raiders, steelhead halberdiers, mage hunter infiltrators etc etc it would be great, but we don't. On nyss hunters it just buffs them to being normal weapon master infantry... For 19 points... Who explode.
So we end up with war hogs and void archons as the mainstay (again).
Seeing as she has to have escort out all the time and wild ride is a new ability, I would just add +2 movement to the description of wild ride and cut escort. This would make the meat thresher legitimately threatening and make the soul slave less of a demand... She may even consider Thornfall! Then I'd give her +1 def and arm for the loss of the armour boost, I've found her a bit squishy for an aggressive caster in my games anyway. Vs Thags2 we rolled out an assassination on her every turn.
I'd cut primed and give her scything touch. Primed is very thematic and I love it for that, but it doesn't work. The reason for scything touch is it specifically is great on road hogs and meat threshers. Road hogs with dark shroud and primal can kill heavies so you don't always demand war hogs. Void Archons stop outclassing road hogs,because they don't get primed and instead she brings an ability they already have. Meat threshers with dark shroud get bonus power on their melee, but ALSO on their gun if they charge into a hard target and want to shoot it. Finally, Helga2 can use it herself late game to be more of a monster, without having -4 armour from switching escort for primed. War hogs generally don't need this debuff but it is ideal for the two models she is supposed to turn on.
Finally, her feat is just terrible. No two ways about it. It can be worded as: While in Helga's control range, FF models gain parry. At the end of this turn once all models have completed their activations, each FF model that hit an enemy model with an attack this turn can make a full advance. This feat is still strictly worse than Magnus1 and Vayl1 (which are not competitive casters themselves) but at least functions with her kit.
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 9:40:49 GMT
via mobile
Post by Azahul on Jan 21, 2020 9:40:49 GMT
I've had games where the Feat could be worded "Helga casts Lightning Strike for free" I guess it's good for a failsafe when her output is so unreliable. By and large though, I do agree with your points. Just not sure Scything Touch is the best replacement. Not stacking with Void Archons is a weird bit of Skornergy to throw in there. I totally agree though that while I love Primed, it is very hard to make work.
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 10:06:44 GMT
via mobile
Post by custardboy on Jan 21, 2020 10:06:44 GMT
Thing is, she isn't *supposed* to be great with void archons right? And she isn't specifically, it's just they work better than other stuff.
I'm not a fan of scything touch thematically but it is the spell that is fantastic for the models she's supposed to be good with and style she should have.
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Helga2
Jan 21, 2020 11:45:24 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 21, 2020 11:45:24 GMT
Haha, yeah. Give her Elite Cadre: Meat Threshers gain Heart Eater. That'll see some use
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