d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on Apr 4, 2019 4:56:20 GMT
Up front, don't mistake these points as me having any kind of affection for the hellmouth... So you have models that LotF is less than ideal against, and then you have an entire class of model (huge base) that the hellmouth does little against offensively, unless of course the opponent puts it in. LotF also cares way less about high DEF than the hellmouth.
I put the word 'first' in there very deliberately. Hellmouth is no doubt harder to kill, but which one is harder to kill before it kills it's own points? Surely it's agreeable that the kill rate on LotF before it commits is quite low (mostly due to non-linear threat and stealth), whereas you have far more control of what goes near a hellmouth before you commit to trying to kill it.
Again, I have no love for the hellmouth, but it's what we are comparing it to.
Kind of linked to above, I find that the opposing players get a lot more control in how to approach hellmouth due to the smaller, static threat bubble. The mobile 16" bubble is a much more sizeable chunk of the board, and harder to avoid.
There are of course spacing tricks you can do against hellmouth pulls too.
I didn't mean to imply that the hellmouth will have more answers to every single one of these questions individually, stealth and -range are indeed good counters.
On the other side, there are plenty of models immune to pushes.
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Post by notime2play on Apr 4, 2019 12:18:10 GMT
Something I suggested in the CID and that I still feel is the best fix for LotF is; drop Death Powered, give him Unyielding and an additional d6 on damage rolls vs warrior models (the name of the ability slips my mind at the moment). At that point his base armor and P+S may need to be tweaked a point in either given direction, but that should restrict his role on the table a bit.
Side thought, should the croc pot be friendly faction only for corpses?
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Post by streetpizza on Apr 4, 2019 19:29:55 GMT
Something I suggested in the CID and that I still feel is the best fix for LotF is; drop Death Powered, give him Unyielding and an additional d6 on damage rolls vs warrior models (the name of the ability slips my mind at the moment). At that point his base armor and P+S may need to be tweaked a point in either given direction, but that should restrict his role on the table a bit. Side thought, should the croc pot be friendly faction only for corpses? Your solution for nerfing the model is to make him a weapon master vs almost every warcaster/lock? Me thinks the proposal needs more thought.
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Post by brotem on Apr 4, 2019 22:30:33 GMT
Your solution for nerfing the model is to make him a weapon master vs almost every warcaster/lock? Me thinks the proposal needs more thought. I would simply remove Death-Powered added back +1 ARM, then lowered range on the Raven to 8". This way loading LotF with pot and blood shaman would not buff him so much and his threat range would be more manageable. It's a free solo after all. Alternative is to make him cost 8 and him not be free in this theme.
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Post by kjata on Apr 4, 2019 23:17:07 GMT
While I wouldn't mind a slight nerf on him, I don't want anything radical that would basically remove him from the game.
So far, nerfing the pot to friendly faction or removing death powered and adding an arm are my favourite suggestions, as is lowering his raven range. The thing is, all of these together are probably too much, as is a lot of other suggestions. He is really cool thematically and mechanically, I want him to stay interesting.
The only reason I'm opposed to hin getting a nerf is because pp's track record on nerfs is pretty bad. I wouldn't be surprised if a lotf nerf swung too hard and he ended up back on the shelf instead of going gradually.
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Post by streetpizza on Apr 5, 2019 3:31:51 GMT
*sorry this one got a bit ranty but people suggesting FF on the pot drives me nuts*
To me the pot going friendly faction is the absolute worst solution of any I've heard so far. Making that change would constitute the most egregious bait and switch on a relatively expensive model that I've ever seen from PP.
How many of us already own one or more witch doc crocs that became useless in the transition to MKIII while Ruhpert continued to strut his stuff on the WM side of things? Hordes needs minion options that actually function within our armies in a reasonable manner which is comparable to the utility that merc options bring to WM armies. Ragman, Sylys, Corbeau, Reinholdt, Ruhpert, A&H with various ranking officers, Anastasia, Gorman, Taryn and Orin all offer great non faction utility support in mercs (combat oriented solos are another matter).
On the hordes side we get saddled with the likes of Targ, witch doc, Kwaak, for our "support" minions. Very few are actually usable for their support purpose with notable exceptions like Lanyssa (also in WM), Hutchuk (also in WM but a more expensive version of Gorman), the chef and mist speakers. The croc pot is a shining example of how that support can be done right for hordes using minions. Going friendly faction on the pot would be hitting the wrong model for the wrong reasons and slapping every non-minion player that bought one in the face.
Focus the changes on the feast and other tharn models as required but leave the pot out of it.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Apr 5, 2019 3:45:00 GMT
*sorry this one got a bit ranty but people suggesting FF on the pot drives me nuts* To me the pot going friendly faction is the absolute worst solution of any I've heard so far. Making that change would constitute the most egregious bait and switch on a relatively expensive model that I've ever seen from PP. How many of us already own one or more witch doc crocs that became useless in the transition to MKIII while Ruhpert continued to strut his stuff on the WM side of things? Hordes needs minion options that actually function within our armies in a reasonable manner which is comparable to the utility that merc options bring to WM armies. Ragman, Sylys, Corbeau, Reinholdt, Ruhpert, A&H with various ranking officers, Anastasia, Gorman, Taryn and Orin all offer great non faction utility support in mercs (combat oriented solos are another matter). On the hordes side we get saddled with the likes of Targ, witch doc, Kwaak, for our "support" minions. Very few are actually usable for their support purpose with notable exceptions like Lanyssa (also in WM), Hutchuk (also in WM but a more expensive version of Gorman), the chef and mist speakers. The croc pot is a shining example of how that support can be done right for hordes using minions. Going friendly faction on the pot would be hitting the wrong model for the wrong reasons and slapping every non-minion player that bought one in the face. Focus the changes on the feast and other tharn models as required but leave the pot out of it. Ayup. It's infuriating to see people continuously suggest nerfing the pot. IF LoTF needs a nerf, make his sword 1" reach. But I don't see him as any more egregious than Sev0, the Derp Guardian, or the Derp Turtle, and I'll not be thrilled if we see a bunch of circle nerfs without bringing down those models too.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Apr 5, 2019 10:12:12 GMT
*sorry this one got a bit ranty but people suggesting FF on the pot drives me nuts* To me the pot going friendly faction is the absolute worst solution of any I've heard so far. Making that change would constitute the most egregious bait and switch on a relatively expensive model that I've ever seen from PP. Focus the changes on the feast and other tharn models as required but leave the pot out of it. The most egregious bait and switch (that you've ever seen) was a mistake PP made I believe, but it did sell that model/unit. The change to MK3 was one of the largest wholesale negation of fielding Mercs/Minions in Faction armies, regardless of theme, the most egregious, not bait, but switch I've seen. Would Tharn players accept 'one unit of Tharn' gain initial corpse tokens, rather than nearly the entire army? Giving un-earned BOOST capability to that many models is like giving ALL Doomreavers Apparition in their Theme, just too much. I'd option that all TB Fennblades gaining a boost token at the beginning of the game, but no ability to gain additional boost might be comparable, but then power creep goes universal, yuck. Cygnar had the brokenness in early MK3, 'adjusted', Cryx next, adjusted, etc. Currently Circle is showing a similar 'issue'. The repeat tsunami effect of these CIDs is getting a little tiresome. (Disclosure: I own Circle Tharn, Cryx, TBs, Cygnar, etc.). And I'm not sure it helps lead casual players to continuing on to becoming dedicated competitive players/buyers.
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Post by jisidro on Apr 5, 2019 10:12:47 GMT
Your solution for nerfing the model is to make him a weapon master vs almost every warcaster/lock? Me thinks the proposal needs more thought. I would simply remove Death-Powered added back +1 ARM, then lowered range on the Raven to 8". This way loading LotF with pot and blood shaman would not buff him so much and his threat range would be more manageable. It's a free solo after all. Alternative is to make him cost 8 and him not be free in this theme. So LotF is worth more than a Sevvy0? I'm up for a Tharny Sevvy0 and an examplar-ish LotF in my face!
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Post by jisidro on Apr 5, 2019 10:15:38 GMT
I don't like minion/merc options they are a nightmare to balance and create problems.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Apr 5, 2019 10:52:25 GMT
Having played a lot of my Protectorate since the begging of MK3, I found the Choir MAT-fix loss was/is one of the worst aspects/frustrations of this 'edition'. Sevvy0 is a fix (hey my Crusader can hit DEF 13!) that unfortunately also over tunes a large model or two.
LotF is worth more than Sevvy, because he/she is a great control piece and enough of an assassination threat as to 'encourage' the opposing player to position his forces more defensively than offensively. Or punishment ensues! I don't believe Sevvy0 has quite that influence and definitely does not have anywhere near that personal offensive threat/capability.
Try it sometime! Give a friendly opponent LotF to field in their army perhaps with Soul Gather ability or some such Boost gain ability, and field Una1 with Eye of the Worm on your side with the requisite warbeast. Reminds me of some of the MK2 leagues that allowed inter-faction fielding, I distinctly remember fielding TB Sluggers with Capt Maxwell Finn, it was glorious!
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Post by jisidro on Apr 5, 2019 13:15:12 GMT
I can tell you the frustration of having high DEF low ARM/Boxes and only seeing MAT 8+/ RAT 7+ warjacks... Now you can get shielding/Passage AND +1/+1 + Road to War. This is not in the same league as LotF. Sevvy0 is not a fix.
As to personal threat the LotF obviously wins because of the bird but straight up melee?
11" threat, Sevvy loses on no pathfinder. -1 MAT for Sevvy +1 POW for Sevvy, +++ Grievous for LotF. 3 Corpses max, Reaper and Corpse gathering vs 5 Focus.
LotF clearly wins but it's due to available buffs in the form of Pot and Starting Corpse. Not on bases stats alone.
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Post by paradox on Apr 5, 2019 14:47:27 GMT
*sorry this one got a bit ranty but people suggesting FF on the pot drives me nuts* To me the pot going friendly faction is the absolute worst solution of any I've heard so far. Making that change would constitute the most egregious bait and switch on a relatively expensive model that I've ever seen from PP. Focus the changes on the feast and other tharn models as required but leave the pot out of it. The most egregious bait and switch (that you've ever seen) was a mistake PP made I believe, but it did sell that model/unit. The change to MK3 was one of the largest wholesale negation of fielding Mercs/Minions in Faction armies, regardless of theme, the most egregious, not bait, but switch I've seen. Would Tharn players accept 'one unit of Tharn' gain initial corpse tokens, rather than nearly the entire army? Giving un-earned BOOST capability to that many models is like giving ALL Doomreavers Apparition in their Theme, just too much. I'd option that all TB Fennblades gaining a boost token at the beginning of the game, but no ability to gain additional boost might be comparable, but then power creep goes universal, yuck. Cygnar had the brokenness in early MK3, 'adjusted', Cryx next, adjusted, etc. Currently Circle is showing a similar 'issue'. The repeat tsunami effect of these CIDs is getting a little tiresome. (Disclosure: I own Circle Tharn, Cryx, TBs, Cygnar, etc.). And I'm not sure it helps lead casual players to continuing on to becoming dedicated competitive players/buyers. The biggest bait and switch is MKIII to themepocalypse. In early MKIII people were exploring how to adapt to the big picture changes. And they bought new models like Loki or Eye of Truth because PP made and sold these models with absolutely no indication of what themes would be or how they would work. Then dropped themepocalypse and killed use of those pieces because they were lashed to a battle box caster that was so-so to outright bad (and which theyve steadfastly refused to errata) Or because pieces like Phyrrhus went into terrible themes, like GotT still is. Or like Circle, made you lean on units like sentry stones to survive the slaughterfest of the gunlines, then invalidated those in all but 1 theme. No, fixing croc pot to FFM for corpses was what I expected the moment the model hit. And really, its just par for the course. See also Lynus and Edra, Saxon Orrick, Pendrake, Eiryss1/2, Gorman, etc. each has had its moment in the auto-include, must-have sun, then eventually been nerfed to shelf sitting, or at least a piece you wondered why you bought.
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Post by elshinare on Apr 7, 2019 3:14:37 GMT
Nerfing the pot is definitely the way to go, if you want people to just dump the game. MAYBE make it so that dishing out corpses and rolling up corpses cannot be done the same turn...okay
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Post by paradox on Apr 7, 2019 3:25:12 GMT
Nerfing the pot is definitely the way to go, if you want people to just dump the game. Lol I doubt it would be.
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