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Post by sand20go on Dec 24, 2018 15:39:21 GMT
Hmmmmmm......
Let me offer this. IMHO when Warmachine gets PERSONALLY frustrating for me (and especially Khador frustrates me) is when models/armies are on the table that "cheat the trade"
[This is a really interesting term that Juris introduced to me. It comes from higher level chess where you position the board so that you deny your opponent the trade (to be precise, it would be that taking the trade so significantly weakens your position that you have to refuse it and I get a "free" piece.]
Part of my disillusionment with certain recent things is that they can do this fairly well. Derp Turtles, for example, having 12 inch range and repo means that they can plink down significant damage, repo to 15 inches and continue to play that game while maintaining a 13 inch threat. S Guardians with Retal Strike and S&P and siege weapons can do this depending on dice. Mass Recurssion has elements of "cheating the trade" because they can take your pieces, you take theirs, and they come back ("cheating the trade"). Vulcan sitting far off and killing at range is a way of "cheating the trade."
Why "cheating the trade" is bad for WM/H is, to pick up another thing from another thread, is because of TIME. It reduces agency in a game that has a fairly long set up and play time. NOTHING is fun about playing against that because you are relegated largely to being a record keeper, marking off damage.
The more that the new hotness "cheats the trade" the more I PERSONALLY know that I get less excited about playing WM/H.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Dec 24, 2018 23:37:24 GMT
I think maybe it's because I am getting older (37 next year), but I have less and less time for nonsense. Even in wargaming. I've been gravitating away from competitive tournaments and more towards local silly ones. Even for local games I just want to run silly stuff now, and make narrative stories as opposed to have all out intense games.
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Post by borderprince on Dec 25, 2018 4:56:52 GMT
I think maybe it's because I am getting older (37 next year), but I have less and less time for nonsense. Even in wargaming. This is one of the reasons I like WMH generally - a tighter set of rules means I can spend more time playing than arguing over how the rules work/are meant to work. The rules probably won't ever be totally perfect, but that part of the game makes it more enjoyable to me.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Dec 25, 2018 14:04:01 GMT
I had fun last time I played. I wish wmh community hadn't died out in our area.
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Post by Netherby on Dec 26, 2018 9:32:59 GMT
Hmmmmmm...... Let me offer this. IMHO when Warmachine gets PERSONALLY frustrating for me (and especially Khador frustrates me) is when models/armies are on the table that "cheat the trade" [This is a really interesting term that Juris introduced to me. It comes from higher level chess where you position the board so that you deny your opponent the trade (to be precise, it would be that taking the trade so significantly weakens your position that you have to refuse it and I get a "free" piece.] Part of my disillusionment with certain recent things is that they can do this fairly well. Derp Turtles, for example, having 12 inch range and repo means that they can plink down significant damage, repo to 15 inches and continue to play that game while maintaining a 13 inch threat. S Guardians with Retal Strike and S&P and siege weapons can do this depending on dice. Mass Recurssion has elements of "cheating the trade" because they can take your pieces, you take theirs, and they come back ("cheating the trade"). Vulcan sitting far off and killing at range is a way of "cheating the trade." Why "cheating the trade" is bad for WM/H is, to pick up another thing from another thread, is because of TIME. It reduces agency in a game that has a fairly long set up and play time. NOTHING is fun about playing against that because you are relegated largely to being a record keeper, marking off damage. The more that the new hotness "cheats the trade" the more I PERSONALLY know that I get less excited about playing WM/H. I mean this. That is exactly what I'm talking about... Games where you don't really get to play... And they just seem to keep producing new things that do it. It's always been a negative experience, but it wasn't the most common experience. I just feel like it has become a lot more common. And yeah, my local meta is also to blame on this too. It's basically dojo land. I don't expect to see anything other than the latest tournament hotness dropped against me regardless of how 'casual' the game is. There are a mixture of reasons for that, either that's just the only lists the person plays or they see me as someone they need to beat and so drop their most competitive thing. Regardless, it just feels like there is a lot less playing the game and a lot more watching my opponent play the game than there used to be.
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Post by michael on Dec 26, 2018 14:12:01 GMT
...lots of chess analogies and stuff ... Perhaps playing solely against people who treat WM as a soulless chess-like problem to be solved where winning is the sole concern, rather than as a game where both players should have fun, is a mistake?
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Post by disgruntledwargamer on Dec 27, 2018 5:14:34 GMT
I'm only a Dabbler in this faction, but I get what you're saying. There are a few gotchas out there that make the game one sided. My last was the turn two circle lord of the feast assassination run.
It isn't going to happen again now that I've seen it, but it was the latest in a string of losses that stemmed from my lack of understanding what my opponent had planned.
I just watched them pull apart my army. Over and over. My main faction last year was trollbloods. I switched factions to Crucible because I was having trouble finding the fun. Trolls just didn't offer a wide enough source of "problems" for my opponents. In my former local meta, i could swap to Khador an win with Butcher 1 or Vladimir 1 because they weren't played often (Dark horsing around), but would have trouble in larger metas.
My realization after a period of 6 months or so was that I had to stop thinking that I knew how to play competitively. To stop thinking about the match. To stop thinking about list chicken. I started trying to learn more about my opponent's list. I started running the same caster through a tournament despite the possibility of bad matchups. I started trying to connect with my random matchup socially. I started playing for the sake of having fun.
So here's the thing. Fun isn't something separate from WMH. It's found in the conversations that happen around the game, during your turn (so you dont run the clock out with banter), and the post game "what could have we done different " discussions. It's in the bonds we form with fellow gamers, LGS workers, and conventioneers. It's in the group paint/hobby sessions. It's in the road trips we take to out of meta tournaments. It's out there. Find a part of the game experience you like, and make it a bigger part of the game. Share it with friends. Make it awesome.
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Post by Netherby on Dec 27, 2018 5:42:19 GMT
While all of that is true, you can apply that to ANY game. Which means you could pick one where the mechanics of the actual game were fun, rather than just the social circle built around it...
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Dec 27, 2018 8:02:51 GMT
While all of that is true, you can apply that to ANY game. Which means you could pick one where the mechanics of the actual game were fun, rather than just the social circle built around it... So what game do you find more fun than Warmachine/Hordes? 40k? Bolt Action? Malifaux? If you aren't enjoying a game, it may be time for a break from it, because it sounds like you are burnt out on the game.
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Miafan
Junior Strategist
Eater of Brains
Posts: 130
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Post by Miafan on Dec 27, 2018 12:20:36 GMT
I think this is kind of "chicken or egg" issue. My meta, for example, has been basically devoid of other kind people, because they have been driven away. It's cool to say "play with other people", but WMH surprisingly brings out in people the qualities mentioned above.
And MK3 just forces this even further.
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Post by mcdermott on Dec 27, 2018 22:41:07 GMT
How many were there, before they were all driven away that is? One assumes if there were a significant number they would have a pool of people to play against and therefore couldn't really be "driven away"
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cuberic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by cuberic on Dec 28, 2018 0:20:39 GMT
I'm lucky enough to live in a large meta. An average 30 people for our monthly tournaments. With such a large meta we have the entire range of fluffy people or those who might play once or twice a month to people who make wtc and place top 3 in the big cons. The big thing is that those top tier players are always first ones to play with a new player. They are actively trying to grow the game. While they might roflstomp your face with their lists it's always a fun game. It's a 2 person game, the goal is for all players to have fun.
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Post by Netherby on Dec 28, 2018 6:32:21 GMT
So, here is the thing...
1) WM/H is heavily billed as a 'competitive' game. This attracts people that like that idea.
2) The current trend of new hotness competitive lists are ones that don't let your opponent really play the game. In general they aren't 'fun' to play against.
Generally a significant portion of your community will want to be practicing and playing their competitive lists. That is simply what the game is to many. It's not really up to the player to design a list that is fun for their opponent to play into. PP is supposed to make the game mechanics fun and fix up negative play experiences that emerge.
They actually did this to some extent at the start of Mk3. Removing a lot of the 'time-walk' situations and giving counter play to them. But now they have started actively creating new negative experiences. In fact they seem totally okay with creating them since they are just pumping them out one after another.
Now you can totally have your 'soft' lists which you might use against newbies or whatever. But are you really going to drop that list into someone you know is equal in skill or better at the game than you? Because being good at the game doesn't actually make playing into these lists any more enjoyable...
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Post by Azahul on Dec 28, 2018 7:04:48 GMT
I'm drawing a bit of a blank on what these new "stop opponent from playing" lists actually are. Primal Terrors and Devourer's Host are both primarily beatstick lists. The consensus from the top tier Cryx players I know is that Slayer spam is fading from the meta (pushed out in no small part by these hard hitting beatsticks) and I can't think of any true spam lists replacing them. The most popular control Warlock I can think of is Krueger2 who is by no means new in what he does nor really insurmountable. The closest I can think of out of the current crop of power lists that you could be referring to would be post-CID Harbinger, who can still be managed iwithout specific tech through assassination threat or sheer attack volume or control effects or any number of other effects. I'll admit that it's a commonly cited problem on these forums that the default reaction to a problem is to give list solutions rather tactical advice. And to be fair, Primal Terrors for one swings out such strong numbers that you can't really expect to beat it with any list, but I do think there's a pretty wide variety of lists that can play into it (mass infantry, gunlines, control lists, powerful alpha strike lists, they've all got at least a game. PT preys on spam more than anything). But I really can't think of anything super popular that fits your description of point #2 Netherby.
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Post by Mr.Human on Dec 28, 2018 8:32:47 GMT
Say what you want about the CIDs, but I think that from the AC CID onwards, the results are looking quite diverse and balanced between the different unit types. This is good news imo, compared to where mk3 started and the limitations on the themes. Juggs till suck at 13 points though, til' S0 is out . Slayer spams also died out around here. I guess people found it booring and no fun for either player. still think it is way to strong and that it should be fixed.
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