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Post by hocestbellum on Dec 28, 2018 9:49:31 GMT
I do think that the CID will come good in the end, and I think the process is certainly something that was needed, but I can't help but notice that the most popular theme in basically every faction is the one that's been through CID.
Armoured Corps, Exemplar Interdiction, Gravediggers, Slaughter Fleet Raiders, Primal Terrors, Storm of the North. (Little early to say on Exalted, Devourer's Host and Legions of Dawn.)
Also a pretty strong medium-base bias there. I don't ascribe it to malice or codex creep; I think PP were faced with deciding whether to nerf things to a common level or buff things to a common level, and they've chosen 'buff'. But it does mean that anything that hasn't gone through the cycle is going to look poor, and the fact is we've only been through the cycle once! Most factions only have one CID theme.
The disturbances should get less with each passing cycle; raising a theme to a certain level will cause less fuss if there's already 10 other themes at that level.
If Wolves comes good, then we've got WGK as a jack theme and a shooting theme, AC as a good general theme, and Wolves as a tech choice and melee theme. Legion of Steel and Jaws will still be behind the curve, but not as much as AC and Wolves were pre-CID. We'll be in good shape, so hopefully we'll have the tools to deal with whatever can be thrown at us.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jan 2, 2019 21:34:36 GMT
I'm drawing a bit of a blank on what these new "stop opponent from playing" lists actually are... I was actually going to ask this same question. There have been literally zero Hard control casters coming out of CID. Only challenge I see right now is that good SPD and Positioning are practically required in scenario play, but that's nothing insurmountable. Anyway. I understand when people are not having fun, and I really think it's time to move on peacefully, I don't think there's shame in that. I for one am still enjoying the game immensely, at least when I get to play it since my local meta died due to our FLGS closing. I'm even planning an LVO trip and hitting more then a few Cons this year
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Post by sand20go on Jan 3, 2019 0:36:35 GMT
I'm drawing a bit of a blank on what these new "stop opponent from playing" lists actually are... I was actually going to ask this same question. There have been literally zero Hard control casters coming out of CID. Only challenge I see right now is that good SPD and Positioning are practically required in scenario play, but that's nothing insurmountable. Anyway. I understand when people are not having fun, and I really think it's time to move on peacefully, I don't think there's shame in that. I for one am still enjoying the game immensely, at least when I get to play it since my local meta died due to our FLGS closing. I'm even planning an LVO trip and hitting more then a few Cons this year I think I wouldn't use the term "Stop opponents from playing". But what has emerged from a FEW CIDs is lists that are Pretty leathal on the alpha from LONG ways away. This isn't to say there isn't a counter - just that it requires specialized tech (in certain factions) and you can find yourself "not playing" (much) if you don't have the tools.
Now it is CRITICAL TO PREFACE (all caps) that I had fun. I wasn't irritated (much) at the game. But I played Irusk2 with a unit of all the MoWs and a Chariot into Slyvestro with a Vulcan and a Railless. Far better player than I (guess who ;-) and after the key turn I think I had lost about 1/2 of the MoWs to sprays/shooting along with the Chariot. With the Supression tanker off the board (It was within 18 of a rockets breath and 18 of a vulcan) good luck hitting the Def 15 Halbies and even then they are Super tough no knockdown. I was able to counter back (yeah team!) with three shocks and battle lust to take out the Railless (making it a fun session) but essentially all she wrote in that game.
As my opponent and I discussed, Vlad2 far better drop - but one wonders about why the game DEMANDS specialized casters with specialized tech.
Here is the thing I am not sure Soles gets (or perhaps why WM/H just sometimes isn't my thing). I go/you go games DEMAND slow attrition. They do so because otherwise the person that is on the wrong end of a fast attrition game wonders "Why did I bother"? It is as if classic gonard hex games were over turn 2 - as opposed to grinding it out for 8 hours to see whether, in a mad dash, that panzer unit can get the final victory point you need and thwart the Allies advance.
There will be other lists similar to that. Iona is going to make people very frustrated when they find that their faction fixes def or rapid healing but not both. Sevy zero, HR, and double Judicators can be a challenge if you are vulnerable to the shooting and can't deliver stuff through it. I have yet to see the Big Bird on the table but it feels like Una2 is going to be pretty darn good with it. I think that Double Guardians, with innate S&P and thresher and a caster that give out retaliatory strike is pretty bonkers and has the POTENTIAL to create NPE. Not so much for Khador but I wonder about stuff that is at ARM 18 or lower suddenly going in and losing systems. Oops. No focus for you.
What I agree with you is that what currently is not in play is the caster/SR packet that would let players win without a single model being lost (and almost no damage done). Those truly were NPEs. They became largely an exercise in "can I do this" while your opponent passively recorded damage.. My frustration with Haley2 in the hands of a skilled pilot has gotten my internet (in)famy. Or maybe it is just envy that our cheapest, in faction Shield guard costs 10 points and that we have almost no faction support that lets us weather out the approach when it gets up to pow 16 under S&P. Maybe in an alternative universe the valks become allowed and we can tell the pigs that they are dying for the greater good of the motherland.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 3, 2019 9:33:21 GMT
Now it is CRITICAL TO PREFACE (all caps) that I had fun. I wasn't irritated (much) at the game. But I played Irusk2 with a unit of all the MoWs and a Chariot into Slyvestro with a Vulcan and a Railless. Far better player than I (guess who ;-) and after the key turn I think I had lost about 1/2 of the MoWs to sprays/shooting along with the Chariot. With the Supression tanker off the board (It was within 18 of a rockets breath and 18 of a vulcan) good luck hitting the Def 15 Halbies and even then they are Super tough no knockdown. I was able to counter back (yeah team!) with three shocks and battle lust to take out the Railless (making it a fun session) but essentially all she wrote in that game. And as a counter anecdote I have used Irusk2 Armoured Corps to spank Locke and Lukas so hard that my opponent decided that he wasn't going to collect Crucible Guard when the models dropped. I can't take full responsibility, as our Ret friend also mulched him with Issyria, but I think your issues, as ever, are more Juris-related than faction-related.
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Post by michael on Jan 3, 2019 16:48:10 GMT
I have been suggesting to good old sand, since even long before the old PP faction forums got nuked, that he should find somebody to play besides Juris. He never seems to listen, though.
Like, maybe play somebody mildly less competitive for a change. For real.
We’re just trying to help you out here, buddy.
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Post by sand20go on Jan 3, 2019 18:49:41 GMT
I have been suggesting to good old sand, since even long before the old PP faction forums got nuked, that he should find somebody to play besides Juris. He never seems to listen, though. Like, maybe play somebody mildly less competitive for a change. For real. We’re just trying to help you out here, buddy. Juris is ALWAYS ready to play and is often the first guy to raise the hand in our local facebook group (highly recommend that strategy for building metas) when one of us posts "Hey, I am free this PM, who wants a game or 2".
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Post by michael on Jan 3, 2019 19:59:29 GMT
Thoughts continued in PM. But, yeah: if you want a community to grow around the game, then (in general) I would suggest you ensure that the hyper competitive folks are not the ones doing the introduction. Casual players breed casual players and competitive players; competitive players generally don’t bring in new people to the community. Just my experience. But, something, something, something. Start running those demo days there, sand, and keep the competitive crowd far away when you do.
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ace
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 52
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Post by ace on Jan 4, 2019 3:37:30 GMT
Thoughts continued in PM. But, yeah: if you want a community to grow around the game, then (in general) I would suggest you ensure that the hyper competitive folks are not the ones doing the introduction. Casual players breed casual players and competitive players; competitive players generally don’t bring in new people to the community. Just my experience. But, something, something, something. Start running those demo days there, sand, and keep the competitive crowd far away when you do. I am trying to grow a local meta from scratch in my small town. Working with the only local game store to get something going. Got a Facebook group started. Now we need to do some demo days. How often do you recommend doing a demo day? At these demo days should we just have one or two 75 or games going to look at and then one or two ppl available to play battlebox games?
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Post by michael on Jan 4, 2019 3:56:11 GMT
I am trying to grow a local meta from scratch in my small town. Working with the only local game store to get something going. Got a Facebook group started. Now we need to do some demo days. How often do you recommend doing a demo day? At these demo days should we just have one or two 75 or games going to look at and then one or two ppl available to play battlebox games? Demo days should be battlegroup box only. Never, ever, ever, never demo with anything more than that.
It helps if you have people playing full games on other tables, sure, so people can get a sense of scale, and have something to do while waiting for a demo.
I strongly encourage the demo giver (so, you, I suppose!) give a demo to one single person at a time. I rarely recommend giving a "new player vs. new player" demo, just because it's easier to run and answer questions when it's "experienced player and new player"... Also new player vs. new player tends to take forever, because, hey, new players.
I would do a demo day as often as you feel like you'll have a good turnout. I'm in a fairly well-established store, so I only tend to run two pre-scheduled demo events a year. I end up giving a number more as the opportunity arises.
My favorite bit of advice for demo givers is this: the purpose of a demo game is not to lose the game, but to teach the other player how to win. You will lose the demo, but only because you're setting up situations in such a way to allow you to help the other player pilot to victory.
Introduce players to the core concepts of the game (focus, feats, warjacks, charging, etc.), keep things moving, make sure they're having fun, and that is the best you can do.
Also, if there are any salty old locals nearby prone to complaining about some esoteric forum ruling or griping about how something came out of CID mildly not to their liking: politely shoo them away. (It sounds like there aren't, but hey...)
Crap, if I had time, I should shoot a "how to run a demo" tutorial video...
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ace
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 52
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Post by ace on Jan 4, 2019 6:25:46 GMT
I would love to see such a video.
one thing I have going do me is that there is an seasoned war machine player hat has moved to town who is willing to help grow the meta with me. We will be getting together at the store next week to mee for the first time, play some warmahine and discuss our plans for growing a meta.
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Post by Mr.Human on Jan 4, 2019 7:29:17 GMT
Played against double Archangel & Lylyth 3 yesterday, man it was a fun game with some awesome carnage. Went to round seven and I won 12-6 on scenario. Locked down Lylyth with a Jugg I ran up to her, she had just a few boxed left so couldn't risk assasination
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ace
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 52
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Post by ace on Jan 4, 2019 7:33:58 GMT
Played against double Archangel & Lylyth 3 yesterday, man it was a fun game with some awesome carnage. Went to round seven and I won 12-6 on scenario. Locked down Lylyth with a Jugg I ran up to her, she had just a few boxed left so couldn't risk assasination What caster / theme?
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jan 4, 2019 7:40:14 GMT
Demo days should be battlegroup box only. Never, ever, ever, never demo with anything more than that. While I do see the sense in this, at the same time my own introduction to Warmachine - which was of course a battlebox only game - did not give me an accurate idea of what the game actually was like, and I suffered a fair bit because of it: I started by running jack-heavy Khador in MkII. It was a frustrating experience, especially when I was introduced to Hordes. Yeah, MkIII is a lot better from that point of view, but still I wonder if battlebox only games are really the best way to introduce players. Maybe throw in a single unit as well; like a 15 point game or something? I dunno.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Jan 4, 2019 7:56:26 GMT
Demo days should be battlegroup box only. Never, ever, ever, never demo with anything more than that. While I do see the sense in this, at the same time my own introduction to Warmachine - which was of course a battlebox only game - did not give me an accurate idea of what the game actually was like, and I suffered a fair bit because of it: I started by running jack-heavy Khador in MkII. It was a frustrating experience, especially when I was introduced to Hordes. Yeah, MkIII is a lot better from that point of view, but still I wonder if battlebox only games are really the best way to introduce players. Maybe throw in a single unit as well; like a 15 point game or something? I dunno. I always preferred to do 15 point demo games, as units will give me little gribblies for the new player to kill and keep their interest. It also introduces them to units, and formation.
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Post by Mr.Human on Jan 4, 2019 9:49:43 GMT
Played against double Archangel & Lylyth 3 yesterday, man it was a fun game with some awesome carnage. Went to round seven and I won 12-6 on scenario. Locked down Lylyth with a Jugg I ran up to her, she had just a few boxed left so couldn't risk assasination What caster / theme? Even though it was a friendly game we both had two lists. My second was Vlad2 & lots of MoW (demo & shockies with a conquest), his was lots Ogrun. He kinda admited he wanted to play the Archangels so I agreed to take Karchev, because my MoW would eat the list for breakfast (if I wouldn't give him a good feat turn that is), too many models. My list was my usual Karchev: War Room Army Khador - Karchev Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army 0 / 40 Specialist Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - War Dog - PC: 0 - Rager - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Yuri the Axe - PC: 0 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 Steelhead Heavy Cavalry - Leader & 4 Grunts: 18 THEME: Jaws of the Wolf --- GENERATED : 01/04/2019 11:42:23 BUILD ID : 2069.18-10-06 I did have an advantage, with a better trade ratio (he is hard pressed to shoot a jack per turn so I had him trading 2 jacks for a gargantuan) and Lylyths 3 feat is pretty useless against a caster with jumpstart. Still surprisingly tight game, was left with 2 mechanics, a jugg and Karchev. He was left with just Lylyth, the witch unit and one solo.
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