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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 30, 2018 8:22:51 GMT
Don't you think Ragman + A&H need to be added? Perhaps even Gorman or Hat-chuck for the +8 damage swing with decap? I mean 16 damage before you roll any dice sounds like a good starting point... Haha, +16 damage isn't a start, it's the END OF ALL THINGS. (To be said in an ominous voice) A lot to spend on support, though
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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 30, 2018 12:45:09 GMT
I reckon Old Witch would be another good candidate for a non-theme list. Apparition on jacks is great, she has Iron Flesh and Weald Secrets for Shocktroopers and... Riflemen, maybe? There's possibilities there.
To be honest, I start a lot of my non-theme plans with 'this caster has Iron Flesh, so I'm taking Shocktroopers', and now I think Ternion are a good shout too since who doesn't love damage buffs?
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Post by MrHaystacks on Nov 30, 2018 13:42:01 GMT
the new ternion has opened up a lot of new space now. The access to non-caster in faction debuffs is quite big. We no don't need to take A&H+V. Still can but now its more of a choice.
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Post by Netherby on Nov 30, 2018 18:56:21 GMT
OW1 is an interesting one if Ternion stay not being dead weight. She kinda wants them any way for the clouds, but in the past they have been 7 points of cloud...
Still her super low WJ budget makes lists even harder to make without freebies.
(It's also wayyyy too early to be talking about Ternion. There is a high probability they will not get to keep the ARM debuff, especially with how few battle reports there was time for and the few that made it all making them orange even though they did nothing broken in the games.)
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Post by hocestbellum on Dec 1, 2018 9:35:08 GMT
OW1 is an interesting one if Ternion stay not being dead weight. She kinda wants them any way for the clouds, but in the past they have been 7 points of cloud... Still her super low WJ budget makes lists even harder to make without freebies. (It's also wayyyy too early to be talking about Ternion. There is a high probability they will not get to keep the ARM debuff, especially with how few battle reports there was time for and the few that made it all making them orange even though they did nothing broken in the games.) Wait, why does her WJP make it harder unless she's playing Jaws? Otherwise she gets the same amount of points as everyone else. (As a QoL upgrade in that regard, it would be nice if she had, say, 28 WJPs but has to take Scrapjack for 10 points. That would allow SJ to count towards freebies in Jaws. And regarding the Ternion, apparently Pagini has said that he really wants the ARM debuff somewhere in the faction. Given that we're not restricted by themes here you can just replace the Ternion in the hypothetical discussion with whatever gets the rule. But you're right, we should wait a bit (into the new year, I guess) first.
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Post by borderprince on Dec 1, 2018 18:46:30 GMT
OW1 is an interesting one if Ternion stay not being dead weight. She kinda wants them any way for the clouds, but in the past they have been 7 points of cloud... Still her super low WJ budget makes lists even harder to make without freebies. (It's also wayyyy too early to be talking about Ternion. There is a high probability they will not get to keep the ARM debuff, especially with how few battle reports there was time for and the few that made it all making them orange even though they did nothing broken in the games.) Wait, why does her WJP make it harder unless she's playing Jaws? Otherwise she gets the same amount of points as everyone else. I think the point is that 18 WJP is tricky to use. You either pay a single premium jack (Spriggan/Grolar, even Ruin given we're out of theme) and probably end up struggling in the piece trading game, or you have to use several more of your points on jacks, whereas other casters can get two decent jacks with just their WJP. Scrapjack is a decent piece, but he doesn't have the same role as most Khador jacks, especially dealing with opposing heavies/colossals. So if you don't pay for more jacks from the available army points, you have to make sure the rest of the list is decent at cracking armour. That is possible, but can be restrictive.
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Post by Netherby on Dec 3, 2018 15:16:10 GMT
The problem with her WJP is that she cannot fit the minimum battle group she really needs into it. So you're going to eat into your main points pool. She wants/needs a minimum of two heavies, so even if you go the cheapest route that's 22pts and you really want to spend 26pts...
Sure, Scrapjack counting towards free points in Jaws would be nice. But it's not really needed. A casters WJP is supposed to be a balancing tool and OW1 does not have the most powerful kit in the faction, requiring a super low WJP so as to not overshadow everyone else... She could probably just have 26 WJP and be fine.
Also, apparently Pagani is leaving PP. So what he wants may not really matter...
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Post by hocestbellum on Dec 3, 2018 15:29:23 GMT
The problem with her WJP is that she cannot fit the minimum battle group she really needs into it. So you're going to eat into your main points pool. She wants/needs a minimum of two heavies, so even if you go the cheapest route that's 22pts and you really want to spend 26pts... Sure, Scrapjack counting towards free points in Jaws would be nice. But it's not really needed. A casters WJP is supposed to be a balancing tool and OW1 does not have the most powerful kit in the faction, requiring a super low WJP so as to not overshadow everyone else... She could probably just have 26 WJP and be fine. Also, apparently Pagani is leaving PP. So what he wants may not really matter... Surely her WJP are low because she already has a warjack? In the same way that Zerkova2 and Strakhov2 have lower points due to their minions.
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Post by borderprince on Dec 3, 2018 16:17:48 GMT
Surely her WJP are low because she already has a warjack? In the same way that Zerkova2 and Strakhov2 have lower points due to their minions. I was trying to address that in my previous post. Scrapjack doesn't do the work you want from most jacks, especially in an OW1 list (armour-cracking).
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Post by hocestbellum on Dec 3, 2018 17:17:35 GMT
Surely her WJP are low because she already has a warjack? In the same way that Zerkova2 and Strakhov2 have lower points due to their minions. I was trying to address that in my previous post. Scrapjack doesn't do the work you want from most jacks, especially in an OW1 list (armour-cracking). Oh, I see. My angle was that the ARM debuff would make OW more viable by mitigating the lower hitting power, but having said that I'm striggling a little to pull together a list that feels as good as that Sorscha2 list I posted earlier
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Post by Netherby on Dec 3, 2018 17:59:09 GMT
Sure, you lose WJP for having 'free' models as part of the caster. But it's still purely about balancing their kit.
I mean apparently Haley Past and Haley Future only warrant going down to 25 WJP. Because you know, Haley3s kit is so weak.
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Post by Netherby on Dec 4, 2018 18:47:54 GMT
So sure, Vlad2 is already pretty good in themes. But there have been a lot changes to stuff since no themes, which opens up quite a few options for him to take stuff out of theme that he would never have run before.
We could combine all his favourites, old and new into one list:
[Vladimir 2] Vladimir Tzepesci, the Dark Champion [+27] - Destroyer [14] - Devastator [14] - War Dog [3] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Greylord Outriders (min) [10] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard [7] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [6] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4]
Any thoughts on some improvements? Atanas could probably go, but I wasn't seeing any great options for the last 11 points...
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Post by hocestbellum on Dec 4, 2018 20:30:39 GMT
That's only really a small deviation from a standard Vlad2 AC list, isn't it? You're sacrificing a lot to get those Outriders!
Did you ever play the Loud Chris Vlad2 list? It was something like Shocktrooper boat, Rifle boat, Conquest, double Eliminators... I think it was Saxon and Mechanics? Conquest has dropped in points since then, so you could actually put in the min Outriders:
[Vladimir 2] Vladimir Tzepesci, the Dark Champion [+27] - Conquest [35] Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Greylord Outriders (min) [10] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]
Shocktroopers with HoF and Vlad's feat are legitimately monstrous.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Dec 5, 2018 6:00:44 GMT
I kinda want to run Karchev in a balanced list; let's say three jacks and some infantry. It doesn't need to be a power list or anything (obviously it won't be if it's not jackspam), but I am wondering if there's any synergies or anything there. Maybe something with Karchev's clouds, or something that particularly likes it when he knocks stuff down first? Heh, if this was MkII I might have brought some Freebooters...
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Post by Netherby on Dec 5, 2018 22:01:22 GMT
That's only really a small deviation from a standard Vlad2 AC list, isn't it? You're sacrificing a lot to get those Outriders! Did you ever play the Loud Chris Vlad2 list? It was something like Shocktrooper boat, Rifle boat, Conquest, double Eliminators... I think it was Saxon and Mechanics? Conquest has dropped in points since then, so you could actually put in the min Outriders: [Vladimir 2] Vladimir Tzepesci, the Dark Champion [+27] - Conquest [35] Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Greylord Outriders (min) [10] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Shocktroopers with HoF and Vlad's feat are legitimately monstrous. You're getting in your double unit of Elims and the Outriders. Plus Demo Corps are actually decent with him now. I mean, you're playing ~16 points down compared to being in theme. But that's always going to be the case. The thing is, the MoW theme lacks a lot of assassination potential. If you add in the Outriders and double Elminators you have a pretty serious assassination threat. I think dropping the STs and Artanis in favour of 4 Tankers and max Outriders could be better also. Then you up the assassination potential and the Tankers are pretty much a more flexible version of STs. Not good for HoF, but also harder for the enemy to negate with debuffs. The only real problem is the lack of pathfinder. It's never going to be as points efficient as in theme, but it's going to be quite a bit more flexible.
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