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Post by Kriegsspiele on Nov 20, 2018 7:42:43 GMT
smoothcriminal , it's always been an issue that competitive play needed 2 lists with 50 (MK2) or 75 (MK3) points. But truth to be told: today we're acutally talking about 90-100 points! Themes not only force you to play spammy lists, they also force you to play bloated lists with way more points (and mostly: models) than back in MK2. Themes (and competitive logic) also make you buy two really different lists (aka themes). In MK2 you could easily start playing competitively (with already 80+% optimized lists) with some core models you used in both lists (30-60%) and some you only needed for just one of the lists. In short: WMH got really expensive! (Funnily, GW on the other hand got really cheap meanwhile and is still offering more diverse and higher quality models.) In my opinion themes didn't make it easier for new players to join: it simply made WMH look like an unbelievably expensive choice compared to other table top systems first and foremost. (And it not only looks more expensive - it actually is way more expensive than anything you can play in GW-land. Naturally most FLGS removed PP entirely from their shelves and returned to GW - what's not really making WMH very attractive for new players either.) anderfreak , that's indeed very funny. Nah, it's actually really sad. - I was playing competitively until mid 2017. I then realized that everything came true what most of us suspected early at the start of MK3. I quit and will - maybe - return when list building is allowed and a real challenge again. - Until then: have fun with those few lists predetermined by PP. For some time it's sufficient - but for me it became really boring afterwards.
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Post by anderfreak on Nov 20, 2018 16:58:23 GMT
smoothcriminal , it's always been an issue that competitive play needed 2 lists with 50 (MK2) or 75 (MK3) points. But truth to be told: today we're acutally talking about 90-100 points! Themes not only force you to play spammy lists, they also force you to play bloated lists with way more points (and mostly: models) than back in MK2. Themes (and competitive logic) also make you buy two really different lists (aka themes). In MK2 you could easily start playing competitively (with already 80+% optimized lists) with some core models you used in both lists (30-60%) and some you only needed for just one of the lists. In short: WMH got really expensive! (Funnily, GW on the other hand got really cheap meanwhile and is still offering more diverse and higher quality models.) In my opinion themes didn't make it easier for new players to join: it simply made WMH look like an unbelievably expensive choice compared to other table top systems first and foremost. (And it not only looks more expensive - it actually is way more expensive than anything you can play in GW-land. Naturally most FLGS removed PP entirely from their shelves and returned to GW - what's not really making WMH very attractive for new players either.) anderfreak , that's indeed very funny. Nah, it's actually really sad. - I was playing competitively until mid 2017. I then realized that everything came true what most of us suspected early at the start of MK3. I quit and will - maybe - return when list building is allowed and a real challenge again. - Until then: have fun with those few lists predetermined by PP. For some time it's sufficient - but for me it became really boring afterwards. Sounds like you should start running single list steamrollers. Our old PG does every once in a while and it works out pretty well as far as forcing all comer lists. Also, for the record I've never seen our old PG play in a mk3 theme. If you want to play in theme in a single list format your merc options become much more paramount to your list being able to cover the theme's weaknesses rather than just enhance its strengths. I honestly think we're one or two Merc CIDs away from list building within themes getting blown open. I'm sorry you're not having fun with it anymore, but I genuinely think the game is still fun to play and I feel like my lists are still quite varied, at the very least I rarely find myself playing the typical tournament loadouts. Steamroller is variable enough that I think you could find a set of options within it that make list building closer to mk2 thought processes if you actually wanted to get some table time in.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Nov 21, 2018 10:57:39 GMT
Kriegsspiele,
I really don't know where you are getting the idea that GW has magically gotten cheaper. Sure, the starter sets are a decent deal... But go ahead and look at the insane price ($35 I believe) for a single clampack Primaris character.
The Marine Tactical Squad is a trap at $50, since you are only going to make a 5 man squad out of the box that has a combi weapon sergeant and a single special weapon... And the box only has enough bits for a single combi weapon sergeant.
The new Knight is $175?!!! What?!!!
The Primaris Repulsor... Oh yeah, value town.
The models are becoming cheaper (points wise), so you need way more of them, along with your $50 Codex, and an extra $50 yearly on two Chapter Approved books that shuffle around what goes from dumpster fire to playable. If you want to be competitive, you either play Eldar, or whatever Codex is brand new and soup in the jank you want... And with each thing you soup... Another $50 Codex plus the models you want.
I run just under a full Battle Company of Blood Angels (roughly 108 Marines plus vehicles) in a 2k game, Warmachine has been FAR cheaper for me to make two 75 point list pairs. So unless you are sticking to the GW skirmish games, saying GW is cheaper is a flat out lie.
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Post by The Snark Knight on Nov 21, 2018 11:20:49 GMT
It's different in Europe, apparently.
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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 21, 2018 11:34:50 GMT
Yeah, a Tactical squad of 10 men is £22 at my FLGS, and there's no knight over £90.
One significant difference is that the pound dropped in strength against the dollar over the last decade, which means that PP stuff gets more expensive for us, but GW stuff doesn't.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Nov 21, 2018 11:38:34 GMT
It's different in Europe, apparently. After going onto the UK GW site and converting the prices to USD... Yeah, there really is a difference. On some things it is barely noticeable... But on some squad boxes the price difference was close to 10 USD. Madness.
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Post by Kriegsspiele on Nov 21, 2018 13:12:54 GMT
anderfreak, seriously, there is nobody playing close to my home town. People are playing a game or two at their homes - but "public WMH" (tourneys or at least games at the LGS) is dead locally and regionally. Zaku, I have no idea about the US prices but in Europe PP is by far the most expensive table top for beginners - and even in the long run. Most LGS delisted WMH after the release of MK3 - what's just logical because of all the problems at the beginning, the following pricing policy and PP's general business conduct on top. In short: Europe is scorched earth. There are very few players left who have to play internationally to fill 64 players' tourneys - and even that's getting harder - and fewer.
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Post by jonnyboy on Nov 21, 2018 13:52:04 GMT
anderfreak, seriously, there is nobody playing close to my home town. People are playing a game or two at their homes - but "public WMH" (tourneys or at least games at the LGS) is dead locally and regionally. Zaku, I have no idea about the US prices but in Europe PP is by far the most expensive table top for beginners - and even in the long run. Most LGS delisted WMH after the release of MK3 - what's just logical because of all the problems at the beginning, the following pricing policy and PP's general business conduct on top. In short: Europe is scorched earth. There are very few players left who have to play internationally to fill 64 players' tourneys - and even that's getting harder - and fewer. That sucks man, sorry to hear. I would be pretty sad if WM died off in my area, you have my sympathy.
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Post by anderfreak on Nov 21, 2018 16:28:56 GMT
anderfreak , seriously, there is nobody playing close to my home town. People are playing a game or two at their homes - but "public WMH" (tourneys or at least games at the LGS) is dead locally and regionally. Zaku , I have no idea about the US prices but in Europe PP is by far the most expensive table top for beginners - and even in the long run. Most LGS delisted WMH after the release of MK3 - what's just logical because of all the problems at the beginning, the following pricing policy and PP's general business conduct on top. In short: Europe is scorched earth. There are very few players left who have to play internationally to fill 64 players' tourneys - and even that's getting harder - and fewer. Yep, logistics is a Female Dog =( Sounds like our situations are exactly opposite just based on geography.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Nov 21, 2018 19:12:06 GMT
] Zaku, I have no idea about the US prices but in Europe PP is by far the most expensive table top for beginners - and even in the long run. Most LGS delisted WMH after the release of MK3 - what's just logical because of all the problems at the beginning, the following pricing policy and PP's general business conduct on top. In short: Europe is scorched earth. There are very few players left who have to play internationally to fill 64 players' tourneys - and even that's getting harder - and fewer. Well dang, yeah... That blows my mind to think of GW as an "affordable" alternative haha. I can now begin to understand where your gripes with the themes comes from. I hear that many people are switching to Guild Ball and Infinity over there, have you noticed that at all?
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Post by goodk4t on Nov 22, 2018 12:31:07 GMT
anderfreak, seriously, there is nobody playing close to my home town. People are playing a game or two at their homes - but "public WMH" (tourneys or at least games at the LGS) is dead locally and regionally. dude, thats flat out a lie ^^, we are playing like every week 1 or 2 tables...
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Nov 23, 2018 4:58:07 GMT
anderfreak, seriously, there is nobody playing close to my home town. People are playing a game or two at their homes - but "public WMH" (tourneys or at least games at the LGS) is dead locally and regionally. dude, thats flat out a lie ^^, we are playing like every week 1 or 2 tables... Hahahahahaha. And the plot thickens!
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Post by Kriegsspiele on Nov 25, 2018 16:13:47 GMT
anderfreak , seriously, there is nobody playing close to my home town. People are playing a game or two at their homes - but "public WMH" (tourneys or at least games at the LGS) is dead locally and regionally. dude, thats flat out a lie ^^, we are playing like every week 1 or 2 tables... Not sure what you're even talking about? There have only been very, very few games for more than a year. If there might be games at the LGS right now: we'll see how long it'll last. One swallow does not make a summer.
People are playing lots of games for a night or some weeks because they want to play with their old models. Just like me playing SAGA for even half a year and off and on currently. Permanently played are a lot of systems GW is offering plus some X-Wing (again).
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Post by Havock on Nov 27, 2018 14:32:56 GMT
In my opinion themes didn't make it easier for new players to join: it simply made WMH look like an unbelievably expensive choice compared to other table top systems first and foremost. (And it not only looks more expensive - it actually is way more expensive than anything you can play in GW-land. Naturally most FLGS removed PP entirely from their shelves and returned to GW - what's not really making WMH very attractive for new players either.) This is true.
People have been dipping their toes in the other direction around here: 50 points is both enjoyable, doesn't bloat as much as 75 points with all the freebies you can amass and the game is less grindy. The sweet spot might be someplace in between but I think that too is up to the playerbase, maybe a year from now people will be ragging on about how fantastic 65 points is.
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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 27, 2018 16:45:49 GMT
Yeah, I really like 50 point games. I preferred 35 points back in the day, too.
Lists just feel less spammy, too. If I'm playing 50 points and take 40 points of Iron Fangs to get full bonuses, I'll be taking at least 30 points of jacks anyway, so it feels like the lists are more balanced.
And you also feel less selected against if you don't play themes, as the bonuses are scaled down.
So yeah, if 50pt tourneys were a thing I'd play all the time.
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