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Post by sand20go on Jul 9, 2018 18:00:56 GMT
I ultimately don't know what the podcast wanted to accomplish. Do they want people to agree and reach the same conclusion that "Hell, maybe I shouldn't be playing Khador after all" ? Or do they want PP to listen to it and say "This guys have a point, we need to give Khador more tools!" ? Ultimately, I want to be engaged with list discussions, tactics, placement tips, etc. Like I said before, I will not sweat the things I have no control over. I can't Control PP, and I can't control my opponents. So give me advice on how to go about engaging the things I can control, i.e. my list choices and my execution. I am even willing to start the discussion on the premise that Khador is on the back foot, that's fine, I have said before that we're the only ones that play fair and are force to outplay the opponent, that's also fine. Good observation and good reminder that the EDITORIAL direction/goal is important for podcasts/writing/etc. etc. As is mostly a debbie downer thing.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Jul 9, 2018 18:08:47 GMT
They may be correct in the essence, but I'm kind of tired of people playing meta boogieman lists trying to tell me that my jack-heavy lists are overpowered. Simple solution to that problem: “Fine, I’ll stop playing Khador jack-heavy lists. BTW, can I proxy nine slayers?”
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 9, 2018 18:23:21 GMT
I agree with pretty much all of these points, but weirdly I often find that some people I encounter and discuss these shortcomings with seem to be under the outdated impression that our shortcomings were justified because our jacks "are hard to kill" and "hit hard", neither point I particularly agree with outside of some specific cases. It can be frustrating to deal with in conversation sometimes . Any of you guys run into stuff like this? There were some folks on the CID that were really up in arms about this if I remember correctly. Technically those people are correct. We do have a lot of arm 20 and we do have a lot of good baseline stats and all of it does matter when you just mash models against eash other on the table. Like compare Jugg vs. Ironclad or Iron fangs vs. Tempel flameguard, etc.
That model stat gap just stops mattering at high level tournament play when 1. You need tech, not stats and 2. Other people simply don't bring bad models. The Khador motto of "I'm like you, but with more stats" turns into "You're like me, but do more".
I disagree; it never stops mattering. One of the examples they use is "Maleok Gators are ARM22 8 boxes, so why should Shocktroopers be hard to kill?". Maleok can make 1 unit ARM22 HP8 in combat, using a spell and a feat, in Blindwater congregation. That is 5 contingencies to be met to situationally marginally exceed the ARM of a Shocktrooper unit in Shield Wall. That Arcane Shielded Ironclad might be ARM21 compared to the Juggernaut's 20, but I didn't need to pack a solo to get there. It's why I always bang on about putting Iron Flesh on Shocktroopers, not Demos, and using damage buffs on Juggers, not Kodiaks. Take your best attribute, and push it off the rails. Khador really does have everything it needs to win, except for themes that actually allow us to build decent armies. I have high hopes of Armoured Corps, and WGK should be fine as the off list until they sort the others out.
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leander
Junior Strategist
Posts: 185
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Post by leander on Jul 9, 2018 18:37:22 GMT
right now the meta in my community is veered towards using cloud walls, and sure spriggan can get around that problem but only just, as the rule states that you need LOS to the place where you want to put the flare usually limiting their placement, worse yet, you can't stack the flares one after the other - for example, imagine a 4'cloud, you fire a flare to negate part of that cloud, you'd think you could then fire another flare a little farther than the previous one due to prior's effect but no, apparently that's something we can't do. IMO the flare should just be something like "place a 3' AoE marker completely within this weapon's range".
I know Irusk 2's a sure answer for that but still...
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Post by jonnyboy on Jul 9, 2018 18:54:59 GMT
right now the meta in my community is veered towards using cloud walls, and sure spriggan can get around that problem but only just, as the rule states that you need LOS to the place where you want to put the flare usually limiting their placement, worse yet, you can't stack the flares one after the other - for example, imagine a 4'cloud, you fire a flare to negate part of that cloud, you'd think you could then fire another flare a little farther than the previous one due to prior's effect but no, apparently that's something we can't do. IMO the flare should just be something like "place a 3' AoE marker completely within this weapon's range". I know Irusk 2's a sure answer for that but still... Why can't you leap frog the spriggans anti cloud? Sure you need LOS, bur if you can now see through the first cloud, what is stopping you? Also Vlad2 deals with clouds handily.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 9, 2018 19:01:26 GMT
The flare specifies that you ignore clouds for LOS to MODELS within the AoE, not that you just ignore clouds completely
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Post by josephkerr on Jul 9, 2018 19:06:20 GMT
right now the meta in my community is veered towards using cloud walls, and sure spriggan can get around that problem but only just, as the rule states that you need LOS to the place where you want to put the flare usually limiting their placement, worse yet, you can't stack the flares one after the other - for example, imagine a 4'cloud, you fire a flare to negate part of that cloud, you'd think you could then fire another flare a little farther than the previous one due to prior's effect but no, apparently that's something we can't do. IMO the flare should just be something like "place a 3' AoE marker completely within this weapon's range". I know Irusk 2's a sure answer for that but still... Spriggan says “In place of making an attack with this weapon...”. Just like shooting an intervening model, killing it, then shootng a model further back, you can place one template, create LOS, then place the second. Initial attacks aren’t simultaneous, rulebook wise.
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Post by auraco on Jul 9, 2018 19:06:34 GMT
Technically those people are correct. We do have a lot of arm 20 and we do have a lot of good baseline stats and all of it does matter when you just mash models against eash other on the table. Like compare Jugg vs. Ironclad or Iron fangs vs. Tempel flameguard, etc.
That model stat gap just stops mattering at high level tournament play when 1. You need tech, not stats and 2. Other people simply don't bring bad models. The Khador motto of "I'm like you, but with more stats" turns into "You're like me, but do more".
I disagree; it never stops mattering. One of the examples they use is "Maleok Gators are ARM22 8 boxes, so why should Shocktroopers be hard to kill?". Maleok can make 1 unit ARM22 HP8 in combat, using a spell and a feat, in Blindwater congregation. That is 5 contingencies to be met to situationally marginally exceed the ARM of a Shocktrooper unit in Shield Wall. That Arcane Shielded Ironclad might be ARM21 compared to the Juggernaut's 20, but I didn't need to pack a solo to get there. It's why I always bang on about putting Iron Flesh on Shocktroopers, not Demos, and using damage buffs on Juggers, not Kodiaks. Take your best attribute, and push it off the rails. Khador really does have everything it needs to win, except for themes that actually allow us to build decent armies. I have high hopes of Armoured Corps, and WGK should be fine as the off list until they sort the others out. A little correction here, Death Pact on Maelok affect all warriors in his control area, with a control of 14 it's super easy to have all his posse in the +2 armor bubble. Also since the posse keep their high armor even if they run the list is a lot faster than the armored corps list. The big difference between Maelok and the typical Armored corps is the amount of shooting Armored corps can bring to the table, it's also the big distinction between armored corps and all the other medium base multi wound list out there. WGK is actually ok as far as theme go, the real problem are the other 3 theme, jaws with bad theme bonus, wolves of winter where everything is overcosted, legion of steel with a complete lack of magic attacks. There are ways to build competitive pairing in khador even with those restrictions, I've had very good results in tournament, both local and bigger stuff like the OTC and the TEQ, sure some were team events but I don't think they should be dismissed. I got carried by my team at the TEQ but I never got stomped and my defeats were mostly due to my mistakes than due to khador not having the tools to do the job. What I dislike though is that the list building is extremely restrictive if you don't want too many blind spots in your pairing. You need magic weapons and I'm still waiting for results from people claiming that our need for magic weapon is overrated.
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leander
Junior Strategist
Posts: 185
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Post by leander on Jul 9, 2018 19:14:23 GMT
The flare specifies that you ignore clouds for LOS to MODELS within the AoE, not that you just ignore clouds completely hence why I'd prefer it just say "place a 3' AoE marker completely within the weapon's range, ignore stealth and cloud effects within the marker" it'd be simpler, less confusing and more intuitive IMO. would it be better objectively? yes, but i don't think it'd be much of a problem, that ability is supposed to be the stealth/cloud removal tool anyway.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 9, 2018 19:51:02 GMT
I disagree; it never stops mattering. One of the examples they use is "Maleok Gators are ARM22 8 boxes, so why should Shocktroopers be hard to kill?". Maleok can make 1 unit ARM22 HP8 in combat, using a spell and a feat, in Blindwater congregation. That is 5 contingencies to be met to situationally marginally exceed the ARM of a Shocktrooper unit in Shield Wall. That Arcane Shielded Ironclad might be ARM21 compared to the Juggernaut's 20, but I didn't need to pack a solo to get there. It's why I always bang on about putting Iron Flesh on Shocktroopers, not Demos, and using damage buffs on Juggers, not Kodiaks. Take your best attribute, and push it off the rails. Khador really does have everything it needs to win, except for themes that actually allow us to build decent armies. I have high hopes of Armoured Corps, and WGK should be fine as the off list until they sort the others out. A little correction here, Death Pact on Maelok affect all warriors in his control area, with a control of 14 it's super easy to have all his posse in the +2 armor bubble. Also since the posse keep their high armor even if they run the list is a lot faster than the armored corps list. The big difference between Maelok and the typical Armored corps is the amount of shooting Armored corps can bring to the table, it's also the big distinction between armored corps and all the other medium base multi wound list out there. WGK is actually ok as far as theme go, the real problem are the other 3 theme, jaws with bad theme bonus, wolves of winter where everything is overcosted, legion of steel with a complete lack of magic attacks. There are ways to build competitive pairing in khador even with those restrictions, I've had very good results in tournament, both local and bigger stuff like the OTC and the TEQ, sure some were team events but I don't think they should be dismissed. I got carried by my team at the TEQ but I never got stomped and my defeats were mostly due to my mistakes than due to khador not having the tools to do the job. What I dislike though is that the list building is extremely restrictive if you don't want too many blind spots in your pairing. You need magic weapons and I'm still waiting for results from people claiming that our need for magic weapon is overrated. God damn it, CID, making me wrong again! I stand partially corrected. I'll have to tell my buddy to reprint that card. Yeah, I've got no beef with WGK. The other three, though... As you say, it leads to massive restrictions in list design. I don't even think it would take massive changes to the themes. Legion might do okay if they just removed that daft restriction, for example. I wouldn't mind if they moved Assault Kommandos over there too, just so it could have some shooting. They'd need to count for theme bonuses, though. And preferably not suck. But anyway, my homebrew themes are for another topic. I entirely agree with you regarding the difficulties of coverage.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 9, 2018 20:29:34 GMT
Worst part of LoS is that PP guys can not explain "Why" it exists. They hinted that Rienholdt+Vlad1 Rockets was the reason for that restriction - which I can actually understand (if not agree with) since Reinholdts spyglass is table wide in its rng rockets at threat 20 is also a bit of a problem. I know with Spriggan that is less of a concern.
Interestingly, _IF_ steelhead rifles get buffed/better that could solve the shooting.....then the magic becomes one of the remaining issue for LoS
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 9, 2018 21:01:27 GMT
To both of you: I agree, but sometimes I worry that all the rest of that drowns out the voices of us who are looking to see some change in the faction. It can be a frustrating conversation to have. They may be correct in the essence, but I'm kind of tired of people playing meta boogieman lists trying to tell me that my jack-heavy lists are overpowered. (It does happen). (admittedly reworded for hyperbole) "You're not really speed 4 because you have speed buffs, (but I'm going to field a centurion and spend a focus or cast TK or something to negate most of those charge-based speed buffs)" "Your ADR roster is fine, (even though Jaws basically doesn't have a theme benefit beyond free stuff and none of your warcasters they gave you actually want to run it) because Khador Jacks are so good" Maybe I sound more negative than I mean to, I've been playing Khador for a good while now, and always seem to find some new thing to draw my attention . I feel like it's a problem with PP direction for a faction rather than other people opinions. Time and again we were proved that if PP wants something to happen then it will and if they don't then it won't. Was there a time when PP actually made major changes just because people complained? Yeah, there are Cryx and Skorne complete rebalances, but those were unanimously considered bad, Khador is far from that. I ultimately don't know what the podcast wanted to accomplish. Was a decent discussion about state of Khador competitiveness. The result is that Khador isn't very competitive when we are talking about solo tournaments, but it also isn't completely hopeless due to S0 and AK. right now the meta in my community is veered towards using cloud walls, and sure spriggan can get around that problem but only just, as the rule states that you need LOS to the place where you want to put the flare usually limiting their placement, worse yet, you can't stack the flares one after the other - for example, imagine a 4'cloud, you fire a flare to negate part of that cloud, you'd think you could then fire another flare a little farther than the previous one due to prior's effect but no, apparently that's something we can't do. IMO the flare should just be something like "place a 3' AoE marker completely within this weapon's range". I know Irusk 2's a sure answer for that but still... You can trample to touch the cloud and then put down 2 templates. Yeah, you're offering a Spriggan this way, but Spriggan isn't easy to kill. It's not like other factions can just buy a 4pt "clouds be gone" solo either. Unless we're talking about Legion, but that faction has its' own shortcomings.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 9, 2018 21:10:41 GMT
It's not like other factions can just buy a 4pt "clouds be gone" solo either. Unless we're talking about Legion, but that faction has its' own shortcomings. Well....... Actually, a number of factions (five+minions/mercs) _CAN_ buy a (5 point) character unit that does almost precisely that. They aslo can put out a poorman's windwall that once again exploits the hole with Khador's lack of magic shooting.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 9, 2018 21:12:35 GMT
Worst part of LoS is that PP guys can not explain "Why" it exists. They hinted that Rienholdt+Vlad1 Rockets was the reason for that restriction - which I can actually understand (if not agree with) since Reinholdts spyglass is table wide in its rng rockets at threat 20 is also a bit of a problem. I know with Spriggan that is less of a concern. Interestingly, _IF_ steelhead rifles get buffed/better that could solve the shooting.....then the magic becomes one of the remaining issue for LoS You know what's funny? Literally the only themes from September 2017 release that have "non-character merc" limitations are 2 Khador themes. There are 54 themes in that list total. PP is scared of giving Khador nice things for some reason despite us not even being the most nerfed or most performing faction. They just irrationally bully us.
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on Jul 9, 2018 21:14:08 GMT
It's not like other factions can just buy a 4pt "clouds be gone" solo either. Unless we're talking about Legion, but that faction has its' own shortcomings. Well....... Actually, a number of factions (five+minions/mercs) _CAN_ buy a (5 point) character unit that does almost precisely that. They aslo can put out a poorman's windwall that once again exploits the hole with Khador's lack of magic shooting. And don't forget the Bog Trog Mistspeaker who gives Eyeless Sight AND Magical Weapons out at the same time...
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