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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 9, 2018 10:58:07 GMT
When MkIII came out and I complained about the new Karchev most people dismissed my complaints because the consensus was that Karchev was stronger overall than he was in MkII. He just looked a whole lot less fun to me, but there are some things I like about him more now (like the fact that his own personal maximum damage output is higher as he can feat and also buy up to six additional attacks). Having said that I have yet to actually play him, though I'm planning to, so take my words with a grain of salt.
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leander
Junior Strategist
Posts: 185
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Post by leander on Jul 9, 2018 12:01:30 GMT
the problems i have right now mostly boils down to themes, i like the concept but things like not being able to use lady ayana and master holt in legion of steel or behemoth being locked to jaws of the wolf and wolves of winter...yeah that's another bag of worms, it just irks me IMO. Aside from that I'm pretty happy with khador, most of my losses are due to me not being very good at positioning, not really the models fault. As a sidenote... #FreeBehemoth irusk needs his baby back playing with iron fangs and winterguard.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 9, 2018 12:17:20 GMT
Yeah, I believe that themes will eventually all be CID'd and balanced, but this multi-year transitional period is bloody annoying. I'm really hoping they do a themepocalype round 2 in September to sort out a few of the main offenders.
And yes, 100% #FreeBehemoth
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 9, 2018 13:02:45 GMT
When MkIII came out and I complained about the new Karchev most people dismissed my complaints because the consensus was that Karchev was stronger overall than he was in MkII. He just looked a whole lot less fun to me, but there are some things I like about him more now (like the fact that his own personal maximum damage output is higher as he can feat and also buy up to six additional attacks). Having said that I have yet to actually play him, though I'm planning to, so take my words with a grain of salt. Karchev was nerfed twice in mk3. He was ridiculously good before that.
Mk2 Karchev with power up? Would be the brokenest Khador caster. Full boosts every turn to your battlegroup and pain train Tow assassinates all day.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 9, 2018 13:19:16 GMT
When MkIII came out and I complained about the new Karchev most people dismissed my complaints because the consensus was that Karchev was stronger overall than he was in MkII. He just looked a whole lot less fun to me, but there are some things I like about him more now (like the fact that his own personal maximum damage output is higher as he can feat and also buy up to six additional attacks). Having said that I have yet to actually play him, though I'm planning to, so take my words with a grain of salt. Karchev was nerfed twice in mk3. He was ridiculously good before that.
Mk2 Karchev with power up? Would be the brokenest Khador caster. Full boosts every turn to your battlegroup and pain train Tow assassinates all day.
I remember losing the boosted attack rolls from feat, but what was the second nerf? Or are you referring to the points rise on the Berserker chassis? I never said "he should be exactly the same as MkII but with all the advantages of MkIII". I just thought Tow sounded like a tremendous amount of fun and I regret that I never had the chance to try it. Having said that, if you remember he was barely played in MkII because he was considered to be quite weak despite the incredible threat ranges on Tow. I'm not sure Power Up alone, with no other change to him other than the base MkIII changes, would make him broken, especially since there's so much armour cracking in the game now. But that's neither here nor there.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 9, 2018 13:26:21 GMT
Yeah, Tow was fun, should've stayed, maybe tone it down to 1 jack or something.
He was weak because all Khador jack lists were weak. Without Power up the only use for massed jacks was ablative armor to deliver B3. I mean you couldn't even charge or run with all your jacks without giving up all your spell casting for the turn.
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Post by benjamini on Jul 9, 2018 15:51:49 GMT
I agree with pretty much all of these points, but weirdly I often find that some people I encounter and discuss these shortcomings with seem to be under the outdated impression that our shortcomings were justified because our jacks "are hard to kill" and "hit hard", neither point I particularly agree with outside of some specific cases. It can be frustrating to deal with in conversation sometimes . Any of you guys run into stuff like this? There were some folks on the CID that were really up in arms about this if I remember correctly.
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Post by bearstronaut on Jul 9, 2018 16:08:31 GMT
I strongly disagree with the hosts of the podcast. I think our weakness to Incorporeal models is not a trivial thing, but to say we autolose to Gremlin Swarms is ridiculous almost to the point of parody. I'm a relatively new Khador player and I've always maintained the position that long time vets of the faction have a tendency to take the strengths of the faction for granted, and focus far too much on their weaknesses. This podcast episode is no different, but to an extreme that I haven't seen in a very long time.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Jul 9, 2018 16:16:44 GMT
I agree with pretty much all of these points, but weirdly I often find that some people I encounter and discuss these shortcomings with seem to be under the outdated impression that our shortcomings were justified because our jacks "are hard to kill" and "hit hard", neither point I particularly agree with outside of some specific cases. It can be frustrating to deal with in conversation sometimes . Any of you guys run into stuff like this? There were some folks on the CID that were really up in arms about this if I remember correctly. I totally get this. I feel like to a lot of people, when they analyze Khador, especially our jacks, they focus on our strengths and not our weaknesses and as a result overestimate how powerful we actually are. For example, if you simplify your analysis down to POW of the strongest weapon, ARM, and boxes, you come to the conclusion that the Juggernaut is OP and needs nerf. But when you start factoring in other rules like DEF, SPD, special rules, the backs of cards, and available in-faction support, the story starts to change a little. Of course, people also like to handwave a lot of these weaknessss away — “you’re not really SPD 4 because you have speed buffs” and “my DEF 12 isn’t high enough to matter” Tl;dr — it can get frustrating to play a hard-fought game, only to hear “ARM 20 is OP BS, but my ARM 22 with Arcane Shield is totally fair and balanced”
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 9, 2018 16:59:56 GMT
I agree with pretty much all of these points, but weirdly I often find that some people I encounter and discuss these shortcomings with seem to be under the outdated impression that our shortcomings were justified because our jacks "are hard to kill" and "hit hard", neither point I particularly agree with outside of some specific cases. It can be frustrating to deal with in conversation sometimes . Any of you guys run into stuff like this? There were some folks on the CID that were really up in arms about this if I remember correctly. Technically those people are correct. We do have a lot of arm 20 and we do have a lot of good baseline stats and all of it does matter when you just mash models against eash other on the table. Like compare Jugg vs. Ironclad or Iron fangs vs. Tempel flameguard, etc.
That model stat gap just stops mattering at high level tournament play when 1. You need tech, not stats and 2. Other people simply don't bring bad models. The Khador motto of "I'm like you, but with more stats" turns into "You're like me, but do more".
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Post by benjamini on Jul 9, 2018 17:16:42 GMT
To both of you: I agree, but sometimes I worry that all the rest of that drowns out the voices of us who are looking to see some change in the faction. It can be a frustrating conversation to have. They may be correct in the essence, but I'm kind of tired of people playing meta boogieman lists trying to tell me that my jack-heavy lists are overpowered. (It does happen). (admittedly reworded for hyperbole) "You're not really speed 4 because you have speed buffs, (but I'm going to field a centurion and spend a focus or cast TK or something to negate most of those charge-based speed buffs)" "Your ADR roster is fine, (even though Jaws basically doesn't have a theme benefit beyond free stuff and none of your warcasters they gave you actually want to run it) because Khador Jacks are so good" Maybe I sound more negative than I mean to, I've been playing Khador for a good while now, and always seem to find some new thing to draw my attention .
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Post by The Snark Knight on Jul 9, 2018 17:26:04 GMT
I agree with pretty much all of these points, but weirdly I often find that some people I encounter and discuss these shortcomings with seem to be under the outdated impression that our shortcomings were justified because our jacks "are hard to kill" and "hit hard", neither point I particularly agree with outside of some specific cases. It can be frustrating to deal with in conversation sometimes . Any of you guys run into stuff like this? There were some folks on the CID that were really up in arms about this if I remember correctly. I find that players in factions that struggle with high armor often think that Khador is overpowered or at least that Khador is one of the strongest if not the strongest faction.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 9, 2018 17:36:18 GMT
On letting the podcast simmer for a bit.....
A) I think they overplay the "stealth" thing. We actually have (mass AOE that hits decently hard) a number of OK answers to that. B) The Jersey guy plays in a heavily Cryx meta (if I recall what he said). Yes. That would typically give us a bit of a challenge - khador as never liked since MK2 to see weaponmaster spam. C) As oft told, you can NOT look at most Khador infantry without thinking about our significantly broader than most stable of casters. D) Incorp SWARMS are really the main issue here. As they note a real challenge is your opponent plopping them on the edge of a zone and then laughing at you while they skew heavily toward the other flank. E) But ultimately the "Khador players need to get gud" crowd does need to think about why the DGI results are the way they are. While not the greatest metric, it really is the only one that is transparently accessible. It does show a drop off from lots of other factions to Big Red. The WHY is I think still up in the air.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 9, 2018 17:53:37 GMT
I ultimately don't know what the podcast wanted to accomplish.
Do they want people to agree and reach the same conclusion that "Hell, maybe I shouldn't be playing Khador after all" ?
Or do they want PP to listen to it and say "This guys have a point, we need to give Khador more tools!" ?
Ultimately, I want to be engaged with list discussions, tactics, placement tips, etc.
Like I said before, I will not sweat the things I have no control over. I can't Control PP, and I can't control my opponents. So give me advice on how to go about engaging the things I can control, i.e. my list choices and my execution.
I am even willing to start the discussion on the premise that Khador is on the back foot, that's fine, I have said before that we're the only ones that play fair and are force to outplay the opponent, that's also fine.
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Post by jonnyboy on Jul 9, 2018 17:58:05 GMT
I ultimately don't know what the podcast wanted to accomplish. Do they want people to agree and reach the same conclusion that "Hell, maybe I shouldn't be playing Khador after all" ? Or do they want PP to listen to it and say "This guys have a point, we need to give Khador more tools!" ? Ultimately, I want to be engaged with list discussions, tactics, placement tips, etc. Like I said before, I will not sweat the things I have no control over. I can't Control PP, and I can't control my opponents. So give me advice on how to go about engaging the things I can control, i.e. my list choices and my execution. I am even willing to start the discussion on the premise that Khador is on the back foot, that's fine, I have said before that we're the only ones that play fair and are force to outplay the opponent, that's also fine. They mentioned a couple times that they did not mean to be conplaining the whole time. Sounds like the desire to get down was too strong.
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