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Post by Havock on Jul 8, 2018 15:29:22 GMT
I can't really give their opinion of Khador too much weight. It basically boils down to what we already knew: Khador players need to have better basics because our faction doesn't break the rules and our themes won't hand you a back breaking question.They are welcome to their opinion though. I just don't share it or see any evidence that it is as dire as they say. And that's how it should be, except guess what, there's a couple of factions that most certainly do that.
Khador has a low skill floor and a relatively low skill ceiling. I agree with them on most parts, it's not absolutely hopeless, but we -NEED- a way to deal with shit like double WE that doesn't involve taking one. Firetrucking. theme force. (Stuffed with overpriced melee infantry with victim stats, good but niche horsies and overpriced ternion as well as a meh selection of solos) or twelve points of mercs that doesn't do anything for the theme they are in, and cannot be included in the theme that needs them the most.
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on Jul 8, 2018 17:22:55 GMT
You should have heard the episode before it went through editing I think the numbers speak for themselves as to Khadors situation, really. Since the beginning of the year they have 4 DGI finishes (and two of them are from team tournaments where things can get wacky). Cryx has >6 times that, Cygnar 4 times that, and virtually every other faction has ~2x the number of DGI finishes - all have AT LEAST 7. There is something wrong here. Sure maybe it's compounded by people not feeling great about Khador at the moment and therefore playing it less, and maybe some of it is meta pushing Khador out but it's pretty undeniable that they need some love. Admittedly I'm the only one on that episode who doesn't have a ton of Khador experience (roflstomped people with MKI Sorscha then quit the game until the end of MKII and have played very little of them since) but I think Khador isn't that far off. If there IS a good MoW list that emerges now that the full line is out (ideally 2 - Bombardiers and a meat brick are the most likely if I had to guess), I think Khador will be in a quite healthy place. Especially once Sorscha0 comes out. At that point there should be at least 1 valid tournament list for each given theme. In the entirety of last year, Trollbloods managed 3 placements. Then they had a CID go live in October, and a few months later they started winning tournaments. They're doing amazingly well this year. A similar thing can be seen with Cryx; they were nothing until Ghost Fleet was released, and then they were winning everything. Skorne are having a much better time of it recently... In fact, you can track it precisely to the release date of the Battle Engines CID. Since then, there is not a single list pairing that hasn't included the Animantarax. The 15 placements they've had since then have included a total of 36 Animantarax. Their entire faction is propped up by an overcorrected battle engine. Most factions have things like that. It pretty much all boils down to 'Khador's themes are subpar'; as you point out, our themes have weird restrictions and limitations inherent to the faction which makes it very difficult to build a decent pairing. However, Armoured Corps is, in my opinion, actually well designed. Sure, it doesn't have insane benefits like mass stealth or carapace, but it's the first theme where we can build a balanced list. I reckon our main future pairing is going to be Armoured Corps + Winter Guard Kommand, with the WGK built with A&H&V. The other themes are just not up to par. As one of those Trollblood placements from last year, yeah Trolls were in a rough spot. KC was unplayable and BoH was uninspiring, and SR2017 really didn't support playing double PoD reliably. Playing post-Northkin Trollbloods just makes everything easier there are so many more options on how to play. If Khador hits a critical mass of good lists with good coverage then it should alleviate a lot of pain points we outlined in our episode. I've run into MoW a few times at this point and they haven't done anything that's blown me away but there's still space unexplored.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 8, 2018 20:16:29 GMT
Haven't listened this yet but power-wise game is in the state of CID-creep. CID things are top tier, things without CID not so much. Which basically means you go AK and S0 or go bust.
Now for some speficifics:
- "Khador has only good numbers on infantry" can agree to that.
- comparisons to mk2 are kinda useless, we evolved past that long time ago. I also have to remind we were pretty much locked into B3+something at the end of mk2 because 2/3 of the models didn't do what they were supposed to.
- "Khador and Retri two strong factions at the beginning". True that, then multiple CIDs happened while we got 1 and Retri got none (and is one of the weakest factions now). Again with CID creep.
- "Khador has bad theme bonuses and weird theme restrictions". Mostly true, all but wgk and AK are below the power curve.
- "lack of magic weapons and grievous/takedown in faction". Amen to that.
- "stealth stops V1 rockets". No, it doesn't. You can Spriggan 2 heavies (you can't kill more than 2 anyway) and spray the infantry (12" still outthreats the non-cavalry melee dudes and cavalry isn't stealth usually).
- "Why X?". Amen to that.
- "Khador does nothing unfair". Amen to that. Not after the nerfs.
- "magical threat number is 12". Haven't though about that, he's kinda right. I have advocated for bombardiers a lot specifically because of 12 threat.
- "AK has ranged support going for it". Yeah, AK is a ranged theme first, melee second.
- "crucible guard has better demos/bombers". Yeah, they don't have tankers/shocks/atanas though.
- "Iron flesh was Khador crutch". I like the change for thematical reasons, but the change makes worse all the low arm dudes and only makes mows better which did make a big hit to model viability. It also needs to be said that def skews with def 15+ were removed enmasse from the game, we're not the only ones.
- "Khador would benefit from combine arms theme". Every faction would and the game as a whole would as themes cost a lot of money.
- "Khador out of theme". May be a good idea as a second list. Probably can make a good anti-Cryx/Grymkin list there. Like machine gun tankers+spray ponies+wgk rockets? Seems cool.
As for meta:
- Ghost fleet nerf is great for us. Other Cryx themes are significantly lower on incorp to the point you don't even need A&H there I think (you still need them for 4 gremlin Grymkin matchup).
- Nemo3 getting nerfed is a good thing for wgk. Matchup still sucks for wgk, but at least there will be less of Nemo3.
Personally I'm just going to sit through current Khador state in V2 AK bunker until something changes.
I'm also optimistic about S0 and Malakov in Jaws/WGK, that 8 focus efficiency swing is a big deal for list competitiveness. They also can try to deal with Gremlins.
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Post by chickenslayer on Jul 9, 2018 0:22:14 GMT
"Now the Spriggan helps a tonne with clouds...but the other two, the stealth and the incorporeal are beyond Khador's reach. That's it. There is no answer in the faction."
That's pretty much all you need to know about the cast.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 9, 2018 0:53:02 GMT
"Now the Spriggan helps a tonne with clouds...but the other two, the stealth and the incorporeal are beyond Khador's reach. That's it. There is no answer in the faction." That's pretty much all you need to know about the cast. Because Vlad 2 with a Victor & A&H is not something I would think to take. All trash models.
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Post by jonnyboy on Jul 9, 2018 1:56:05 GMT
"Now the Spriggan helps a tonne with clouds...but the other two, the stealth and the incorporeal are beyond Khador's reach. That's it. There is no answer in the faction." That's pretty much all you need to know about the cast. Because Vlad 2 with a Victor & A&H is not something I would think to take. All trash models. I think it comes down to options. Spriggan is a decent utility Jack now, hitting at a mat 8, bulldoze, and removes stealth. We don't have another de-stealth option outside of casters, and 17 pts is a hefty price. Similar position when it comes to magic weapons. We just don't have more than 1.5 choices for magic weapons/stealth and they're expensive. I also hate comparing, but Cygnar: Arlan Strangeways and the Trench dog. Both etxtremely cheap comparatively. I would love to have victor & AH&V together, but that's a 15-19 point investment. I have just been trying out victor, really like the model in AC. I also find a strong need/use for eliminators and probably a min mechs/gobber tinker for the victor. But 15 points it the max I think we should spend on non-MOW models, could be wrong here, but the free solos have such great value. I'm definitely going to try this out. As well, AC under vlad is going to want to fit in Atanas a kovnik, another 11 points required beyond units. Units, a second thing I feel like is needed in the theme, is 3. Two shock troopers may work for a 2 unit build. AC is still very new to list building, so this could all change.
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Post by chickenslayer on Jul 9, 2018 2:09:20 GMT
You mean, we have no de-stealth option apart from the Victor you were just talking about. I don't even think there's a direct caster answer for Stealth baring something like stripping Occultation with Zerkova 1's true-sight'd Hex Blast. Also Reinholdt might not work for WGK but he sure works for all the other themes, including Man of War
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 9, 2018 2:18:32 GMT
Active Player is right on that point. With nearly every caster, you can fit a Victor and A&H and still qualify for 60 points of free models, taking care of stealth and magic weapons in one go.
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Post by jonnyboy on Jul 9, 2018 3:05:14 GMT
You mean, we have no de-stealth option apart from the Victor you were just talking about. I don't even think there's a direct caster answer for Stealth baring something like stripping Occultation with Zerkova 1's true-sight'd Hex Blast. Also Reinholdt might not work for WGK but he sure works for all the other themes, including Man of War So Victor removes stealth yes, but not on a dime. It's a 50/50 shot I believe? If Khador has issues with stealth and you rely on a 50/50 shot, I would almost not consider that a solution. That is more or less icing on the cake in a game where there is a single solo causing you an issue. Where as Reinholdt and Spriggan are a stealth removal tool, as you can expect and rely on theirs to work. I think that's an important difference. As for the caster solution, really depends on what issue we're talking about. Mass stealthed units, yea I'm not so sure here, possibly just cram as many aoes into them as you can. Solos, grimlin swarms, well this is another great thing about Irusk! Air bursts cares nothing for incorporeal, stealth, LOS, cover, concealment, and throw sylys in there! Those solos better be scared. @armchair warrior, You really can, it's a nice 15 point module for victor/AH for the most part. But then i'm viewing the rest of the AC package (mostly at what I've been bringing to the table). Demo and shocks are a 20 point module, and most annoyingly bombadiers are a 21 point module. The 21 points really saddens me the most, as this puts met at 61 points for a full 3 units, 1 point over what would be perfect. I also mentioned the kovnik and Atanas which are pretty much auto includes. This could change drastically in the coming months as we may find Atanas is not that important. So that's another 11 points ontop of Victor and AH, which can be offset by making Dragons and the bomadier captain free, which I think could be better used for tankers. Again this is all up in the air, I've played 4 games with V2, 2 against primal terrors and 2 against kolgrima. The list has play, but desperately needs eliminators and AH, and I have not found which is needed more. I have also not ventured into only playing with 2 units, maybe shocks and bombs, but that feels very low on model count.
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Post by chickenslayer on Jul 9, 2018 4:00:26 GMT
Assuming you don't shoot your own models, exploit your opponent's positioning because AOE 5's are enormous or employ an Artillery Kaptain then yes, it's a 50/50. Which, considering we appear to be shooting at a single stealth solo, is also the kind of model who usually dies to rando-blast damage, which Khador has some access to.
Anyway, pushing that aside I find that Vlad 2 has trouble running 3 units but can simulate such bulk by running the solos, especially the Tankers. A Quad Tanker package serves well as a 3rd "unit" in a lot of lists, especially in place of Bombardiers if you're after more bulk.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 9, 2018 4:46:27 GMT
Anyway, pushing that aside I find that Vlad 2 has trouble running 3 units but can simulate such bulk by running the solos, especially the Tankers. I would love to understanding more of your thinking on this. I find the flexibility of the 1-1-1 package with Vlad2 great. If he wants board position and "tankiness" he feats on the shocks. If he has an opportunity to press deep and hit things hard the demo. The bombers are a great HoF target but ALSO can do serious work (like kill casters) if the opportunity presents itself to walk 7-9 (with the chain saw going for pathfinder) and then light things up from 12....or in the case of a game last week 5 as wormie got turned into an xmas tree. Do you think/like the tankers are alternative feat options?
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Post by chickenslayer on Jul 9, 2018 5:40:01 GMT
In a word, yes.
Feating on a Strike Tanker gives you 2 punches at POW 15 then a RAT 9 AP shot at some Firetruckwit solo or colossal, which is a lot of efficiency and flexbility. Charge 10, bulldoze to get LOS to a solo in the back field or to break up shield walls, punch, boost the damage on the second punch then apply Slug Gun to the affected area. Plus the Slug Gun having Grevious Wounds is like the only Meta rule Armoured Corps has access to, so might as well exploit it. There's a lot of good applications for it too and it's not like Tough is going away anytime soon
Feating on an Oppression Tanker is what it is, and often crucial in matchups like the Trencher match where you're trying to shoot dug in models under flux or something like Madrak 1 where you're going for the shotgun attack on a cluster of champs. Plus you're pretty safe from return fire this way and can also go for random caster kills. Plus you can still throw them into melee to get the two big punches, if you're in a matchup where their shooting isn't valuable.
It's not really rocket science: Tankers make use of basically all aspects of the feat, even defense & because of Tactician they can be splashed between big unit activations to go clear off chaff or do some kind of high value play, especially if you're feating on, say, Demo Corps (who you can't feat on all 6 members of the unit anyway). You can feat on like 4 Demo Corps and use the other two feat tokens on Tankers to clear a path, Plus unlike Shock Troopers when they charge in they stay at ARM 24 if they don't get flanked.
This is the current list. I'll admit I've cleaned out a lot of meta stuff like the Victor or Aiyana & Holt in the name of more raw effeciency because of the matchups I have in mind, and for this purpose having the Tanker package is preferable to having Bombardiers.
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps
[Vladimir 2] Vladimir Tzepesci, the Dark Champion [+27] - Destroyer [14] - Destroyer [14] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard [7] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Man-O-War Assault Chariot [14]
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Post by Mr.Human on Jul 9, 2018 9:36:53 GMT
God I miss (the old mk3) Karchev and the (old mk3) Mad Dogs. There was our very own Boogieman. I kid I kid, I joke...
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 9, 2018 9:42:28 GMT
I miss MkII Karchev.
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Post by Mr.Human on Jul 9, 2018 10:43:46 GMT
Yeah, nerfing him wasn't needed imo.
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