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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 28, 2018 9:02:34 GMT
not to derail but, while i love the uhlans I personally find it idiotic they use the pommels of their lances as close combat weapons, regardless of its P+S 10 (which is still pretty pathetic), they should have a backup weapon stored on the horse's back right behind the rider, like a one handed sword or an axe since it's khador. just a pet peeve seeing an elite cavalry unit swinging an unwieldy lance in close quarters to strike enemies with its pommel. Didn't they have a spear that they used when not charging in MK2?
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leander
Junior Strategist
Posts: 185
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Post by leander on Jun 28, 2018 9:20:55 GMT
a short spear yes( they changed it to pommel strike in mk3), though it was never visible on the model, if it stayed named as a short spear i'd be fine though, since attacking with a lance's pommel is just laughable XD.
i'd ideally have the pommel become a short spear /sword / axe and have it at p+s 12 but beggars can't be choosers
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 28, 2018 10:56:30 GMT
I dunno, I find the image of trying to draw another weapon without dropping a massive lance (they can technical still use it if they get another charge) or the reins while in a close-range melee scrum a bit awkward; more so in my head than raising the tip of the lance and bashing downwards with the pommel - it's not going to be very effective, but that fits the rules.
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leander
Junior Strategist
Posts: 185
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Post by leander on Jun 28, 2018 11:52:10 GMT
usually knights drop the lance after a successful charge (mainly because the lance normally shattered on impact and/or got stuck on the target as well as it being unwieldy in close combat) and then quickly change to a backup weapon, to get another lance they'd usually retreat and get another from their squire. And since reloading isn't a thing in warmachine "apparently blunderbuses and mortar shells are in high demand", "reloading" a lance wouldn't be that much of an issue. In the fluff it'd just be a different lance each charge (imagine a nearby winterguard handing the uhlan the lance).
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 28, 2018 12:15:09 GMT
I'll take the slightly odd approach of doing this from an entirely non-theme perspective
List Formats 3. Legion of Steel 2. Wolves of Winter 1. Jaws of the Wolf
I regard all of those themes as strictly worse than playing out of theme. Legion cannot have any magic or shooting, Wolves has no main units, shooting, or really any actual theme benefits, and Jaws might move up slightly with the inclusion of Sorscha and Malakov, but even then all you gain over non-theme is a handful of free points in exchange for anything resembling balance.
Warcasters 3. Harkevich 2. Vlad3 1. Zerkova2
Harkevich is just a horrible, horrible caster. Mobility and a free charge feat is a lovely combo, but that is quite literally his whole game. And being dependent on a 3 cost spell when you have 6 focus is crippling, as is the lack of any actual support abilities. Or any other spells.
Vlad3 has some lovely abilities, but he more or less doesn't have a feat and is surprisingly vulnerable. Even playing the cavalry out of theme is poor with him due to the lack of real options, but the double-alpha play from sprinting SPD9 sidestepping Uhlans can be sweet if you pull it off. But you lose to any control, any decent shooting, and almost any infantry swarm. You also don't have the firepower for the heavier lists. So you know, everything.
Zerkova2 is designed to support spellslinging, and basically nothing else. She can half-assedly run jacks, sort of throw a few spells herself, and... well, that's pretty much it. I get the impression they were a bit worried about a Khador arc node, and made her spell list mostly useless in response. All she does well is something Khador is truly terrible at. If we end up with Hex Hunter unit I'm sure her stock will soar, but until then, no.
Warjacks 3. Decimator 2. Demolisher 1. Mad Dog
If we're including character jacks then Black Ivan takes the top spot. Overpriced rubbish.
The Mad Dog is as fragile as the rest of the Berzerker chassis, but doesn't really have a role that needed to be filled. Even if you do have a pressing need for tramples, a SPD4 jack is not the way.
The Demolisher is a worse, more expensive Devastator.
The Decimator is the Assault Kommando of the jacks, combining a sub-par shooting option with a sub-par melee option to give something wholly bad.
Honorable mention for the Spriggan, which is basically a really expensive anti-stealth tool. Despite being P18, MAT6 means it is about on par with the Destroyer damage-wise in melee. Outside of the flares its gun is the worst jack gun in the game, and RAT4 to boot. It has situationally better ARM. Again, Assault Kommando effect of combining several poor options, but it doesn't make the list because for all its faults, reach, bulldoze and the flares do provide solid utility. It would absolutely be on the list if it was still 19 points, though!
Battle Engines 3. Winter Guard Gun Carriage 2. Man-o-War Assault Chariot 1. Man-o-War Siege Chariot
The WGGC is so much better than the other two for the cost that it's almost comical. The Assault Chariot is actually a pretty effective shooting option, but it's not the sturdiest thing and it can't really extricate itself if it gets jammed. The Siege Chariot has the same issues, but with a much higher risk of doing nothing due to completely missing.
Units 3. Great Bears 2. Bombardiers 1. Assault Kommandos
The Great Bears outside of Legion are rubbish. They just die to everything unless they're in B2B, and then they die to almost everything but are easier to reach. Their damage output is good, but not really worth it. P11 sometimes-WM is not stellar by Khador standards.
Bombardiers are not worth it as a non-theme shooting option. They're barely worth it as an in-theme shooting option, where you can take all the tankers for the same cost, or an Assault Chariot for less, and be more effective. Out of theme they lose compared to both WG units with rocketeers. Or some Mortars, or the Gun Carriage.
Assault Kommandos. Ugh. Too many conflicting rules, no real survivability, no real offensive output, and to top it all off they're really expensive. If they ever upgrade their guns to Death Whisper Carbines then we might be getting somewhere, but I'm not holding my breath.
Solos 3. Fenris 2. Manhunter 1. Yuri
Overcosted missiles, the lot of them.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 28, 2018 12:56:32 GMT
usually knights drop the lance after a successful charge (mainly because the lance normally shattered on impact and/or got stuck on the target as well as it being unwieldy in close combat) and then quickly change to a backup weapon, to get another lance they'd usually retreat and get another from their squire. That doesn't really translate well to the tabletop though. I think the current system of "they keep their lance and just make do when they don't get the charge" is OK; for me having rules that match how I see things happening on the tabletop feels better than more realistic rules that don't match what we actually see the models doing (so dropping the lance is more realistic, but I don't see a squire on the tabletop chasing a horse with lance in hand because the model is not there despite support models being a thing you can target and destroy for in-game effects, and I don't see my cavalry riding back to my deployment zone then running forwards again; meanwhile bashing models with the pommel of a lance looks awkward but I can picture it happening and fitting in with the events that are occurring on the tabletop).
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 28, 2018 13:00:40 GMT
Assault Kommandos. Ugh. Too many conflicting rules, no real survivability, no real offensive output, and to top it all off they're really expensive. If they ever upgrade their guns to Death Whisper Carbines then we might be getting somewhere, but I'm not holding my breath. Actually, I really like that idea. Give them short-range Death Whisper carbines, but then give them Reposition (maybe from a UA); works well with Shield Wall too.
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Post by Mr.Human on Jun 29, 2018 6:03:12 GMT
Vlad3 is the worst, then we got a few casters who aren't great but not that bad either (Strakhov2, S2, Karchev, Harkevich...Some who will benefit greatly from S0 and some who needs more models or changes to work better.
Themes, worst must be Wolves, needs more models. Then Jaws (I play it but just because I like jacks and it doesn't limit my choices) and Legion.
Units: Assault Kommandos, all Greylords, Kossites all equally bad imo. Followed by Great Bears and the Field Guns.
Jacks...Demolisher, no reason to take it when you have the Deva. Torch comes second but this is purely on comparison and stats, haven't played him. Give Torch dual attack and he would instantly be real nice! Black Ivan is maybe even worse though, I have a hard time justifying taking him even with Harkevich, just way too expensive. Honourery mention goes out to the Mad Dog, it's a points filler almost 100% of the time, and even then the Zerker is usually better. The Zerker chassis nerf in boxes really hurt them imo and wasn't needed after the Karchev nerf.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Jun 29, 2018 6:55:14 GMT
Vlad3 is the worst, then we got a few casters who aren't great but not that bad either (Strakhov2, S2, Karchev, Harkevich...Some who will benefit greatly from S0 and some who needs more models or changes to work better. Themes, worst must be Wolves, needs more models. Then Jaws (I play it but just because I like jacks and it doesn't limit my choices) and Legion. Units: Assault Kommandos, all Greylords, Kossites all equally bad imo. Followed by Great Bears and the Field Guns. Jacks...Demolisher, no reason to take it when you have the Deva. Torch comes second but this is purely on comparison and stats, haven't played him. Give Torch dual attack and he would instantly be real nice! Black Ivan is maybe even worse though, I have a hard time justifying taking him even with Harkevich, just way too expensive. Honourery mention goes out to the Mad Dog, it's a points filler almost 100% of the time, and even then the Zerker is usually better. The Zerker chassis nerf in boxes really hurt them imo and wasn't needed after the Karchev nerf. Oh, I keep forgetting about the Berserker class 'jacks losing boxes. That does seem a bit over the top, and more than a bit silly.
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Post by onijet01 on Jun 29, 2018 7:04:44 GMT
Sorry Mr.Human but i do not see how you think Vlad 3 is the worst caster in faction.
His toolkits are very strong and he can easily fix the Man-O-War dilemma better than any other Warcaster in faction.
His feat is not the strongest but works well with our Warjacks and Cav. Models.
He himself is designed to mulch baseic infantry and has tec that works good vs high armor or sheilwall(sheilds and buckler) infantry allowing the harder hitting models to do work.
He is also capable of being immune to targeting of non magical guns. Something very usefull on a 50mm base caster.
So why is he the worst? I know its an oppinion i just dont see it
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 29, 2018 8:16:45 GMT
Sorry Mr.Human but i do not see how you think Vlad 3 is the worst caster in faction. His toolkits are very strong and he can easily fix the Man-O-War dilemma better than any other Warcaster in faction. His feat is not the strongest but works well with our Warjacks and Cav. Models. He himself is designed to mulch baseic infantry and has tec that works good vs high armor or sheilwall(sheilds and buckler) infantry allowing the harder hitting models to do work. He is also capable of being immune to targeting of non magical guns. Something very usefull on a 50mm base caster. So why is he the worst? I know its an oppinion i just dont see it There's a bit of a scrum at the bottom, so your actual mileage may vary, but V3 will almost always be near the bottom. His feat is sadly not especially effective on Warjacks, as Sprint is never going to be good on models with a base SPD of 4. He also really doesn't run warjacks well. Wind Wall is good, but it's risky to rely on it. And you do have to rely on it because he's a bugger to screen. He also doesn't have Steady like a lot of other cavalry casters, which makes him a bit more vulnerable. If you ever face anyone with a ranged game, you'll feel really short of focus. You need to cast Wind Wall, and in a lot of cases you also want Dash. Two upkeeps and bam! no focus. Blood Quenched and Flashing blase are awesome. Particularly on his feat turn, when you can charge in, murder a whole bunch of stuff, and run, sitting on crazy ARM. But that's kind of his whole thing, and it's not really that good. Without the feat he gets left hanging in the breeze. Even with a perfect feat, you're looking at probably not killing more than 3-4 models, being 9" from your opponent's battle line, and frankly, in trouble. Give him a spin, though. Perhaps you'll see something I missed and come to a different conclusion, and I'd love to hear about it!
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Post by thematsjo on Jun 29, 2018 10:14:47 GMT
Judging by all your responses (and my previous impressions over the years) to the warcasters I get the impression that consensus on their tier levels in terms of power would lie somewhere around this: Top: Butcher1, Butcher3, Irusk2, Old Witch2, Strakhov1, Vlad1, Vlad2 Mid: Harkevich1, Irusk1, Karchev1, Kozlov1, Malakov2, Sorscha3, Strakhov2 Bottom: Butcher2, Old Witch1, Sorscha1, Sorscha2, Vlad3, Zerkova1, Zerkova2
Does that look about right?
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 29, 2018 11:13:15 GMT
I don't know where you've pulled all that from, because no-one has put Sorscha1 or Zerkova1 on their 'bad' lists even as a passing mention. Butcher 1 is probably not top tier either. Hark has been mentioned as terrible a couple of times. Hard to judge S3 as she's only just out.
It's also pretty academic and subjective. Vlad1 and B3 are both very good because they can run pretty much anything. But V1 works because he buffs everything, B3 works because he's an absolute monster regardless of your army. Two very good casters working in very different ways. Irusk 2 is better at running infantry than OW2, but does that make him a better caster?
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Post by thematsjo on Jun 29, 2018 11:40:10 GMT
I don't know where you've pulled all that from My brain, based on earlier conversations and thinking. I didn't think I had to specify that? Kind of hard to pinpoint models that haven't been mentioned before otherwise.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 29, 2018 11:45:04 GMT
Given that you specified 'From your responses', I was working on the assumption that you had collated the list from responses in the thread. Hence my confusion!
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