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Post by Havock on Jun 26, 2018 21:19:41 GMT
Enlighten me. I see a focus sink with a RAT 4 gun, what do you see? I see a rat4 gun in a faction that has wide access to stationary and knockdown, with RoF2, boostable POW15, and Beat Back. The Decimator is one of those "great, garbage and great again"-jacks.
Great at first because he has a gun and a ripsaw, cool. And continuous attack is nice. Then you find it to be a focus hog that can't shoot well and doesn't hit particularly hard. ...And then you find that people love to toe in zones.
The point drop helped it quite a bit, if it was PS18 I would probably consider getting a second one.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 26, 2018 21:54:32 GMT
I loved him in MkII when he was P+S 18. Give him that or Point Blank, even if it means bumping him up a point or two (of course that would mean either giving Kozlov another WJP or two, or dropping down the cost of the Juggernaut...).
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 27, 2018 1:02:45 GMT
Themes: 3. Legos 2. Wolves 1. Jaws
Casters: 3. B2 2. OW1 1. Z2
Jacks: 3. Zerk chassis (hi, CID) 2. Demolisher 1. All characters that's not Ruin or Beast. Yes, even Behemoth, he was powercreeped into oblivion. I actually like Decimators.
Units: 3. Mechaniks 2. Ternion 1. Kommandos
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Post by sand20go on Jun 27, 2018 1:41:32 GMT
(from Middle to worst) Jaws Legos Wolves
Casters Hark Z2 B2
Jacks
Demolisher Black Ivan Dragos
Units Dragons Aks Ternions
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Post by thematsjo on Jun 27, 2018 9:21:17 GMT
...And then you find that people love to toe in zones. That's an interesting point. I'm biased towards MoW so movement effects don't tend to be a concern for me but I can imagine liking a way to deny the opponent that ability. The Grolar needs to get in close, but the Decimator can pull it off from 14" away. I'm probably in the second stage you imagined, curious to see if I end up joining you in your assessment. For now, the utility seems insufficient compared to the opportunity cost of fielding one. Thank you for elucidating. Jacks: 3. Zerk chassis (hi, CID) 2. Demolisher 1. All characters that's not Ruin or Beast. Yes, even Behemoth, he was powercreeped into oblivion. I actually like Decimators. Berserker and Behemoth are pretty ambitious picks, you really think they're that bad now? A lot of people seem to see Big B as the reward for playing Jaws, and Berserkers may become squishier, but also cheaper? I'd love to read some of your thoughts.
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Post by cplmustard on Jun 27, 2018 18:41:40 GMT
I'll bite (from least worst to worst)
Themes: -Legion of Steel, ho-hum benefits and a very restrictive set of models, but saved by those models pretty much all being excellent (RIP 2" reach on kovniks) -Jaws of the Wolf, almost 0 benefits most of the time, but it's a jack theme that still gives free stuff for only 25 pts, plus behemoth -Wolves of Winter, this theme is missing something, decent benefits which are really hard to get use out of. Greylords are squishy and don't deal much damage, but have great utility, doom reavers are squishy and deal a lot of damage, but very few casters can deliver them, plus they're too expensive to take casualties (which they will)
Casters: -Vlad3, the worst vlad by far, dash is cool, hands of fate is cool, but he basically has no feat, even with a bunch of cav models it's only so-so. -Zerkova2, a caster with a very single minded gameplan that relies on your opponent not having cold immunity, AND getting critical hits, suffers greatly from relying on a not-great theme for models to utilize her stuff. -Butcher2, an okay kit but no focus to do it with, if your opponent is merciful you *might* get to pacman a bunch of stuff, more likely you fluff a damage roll and die. Plus conferred rage doesn't really work anymore without free charges/power attacks since you never have focus to allocate. His feat is alright, but requires that you kill stuff before getting to use it, and the effect is difficult to get value out of.
Warjacks: -Demolisher, the Devastator but you pay for guns you don't want to use, with 8" range if you do use them you'll likely get killed in return, gunfighter is cute but not really better than rain of death. -Mad Dog, as cheap as berserkers but hits way softer, and just as paper thin, but hey, you can spend a focus and move a bit faster to uhh, free trample maybe. I was really hoping he'd get open fists in CID and become our cheap power attack bot, but cest la vie. -Drago, somehow the most expensive berserker chassis and somehow the worst, pricier than a juggernaut, but doesn't hit as hard, has this weird def skew concept which sounds okay, but requires that he doesn't contribute and the only casters he doesn't explode with have no way of boosting it to frustrating levels.
Units: -Greylord ternion, it pains me to put them here because I love them, but their main utility function simply doesn't work in the theme they've been put in, I would have loved them to be included in legion of steel so that you could do the classic pikemen cloudwall. In wolves they just aren't that useful considering you can't target doomies. -Assault Kommandos, don't count for free theme points, and basically only serve as an okay-ish tarpit unit, they don't really have good output, their anti-tough tech is awkward to use and their only real selling point is immunities. -Kossite woodsmen, the worst ambushing unit in the game, and with more ambush being thrown around they just get worse and worse by comparison.
Solos: -Koldun Lord, poor guy just doesn't have quite a big enough command to make his no-shooty bubble worth 4 pts or a free solo spot. -Manhunter, great stats, but low threat and outperformed by other free solos in his theme, not to mention not quite durable enough to hold flags consistently. -Winter Guard Artillery Kapitan, I was so excited to finally get artillerist in faction, but he's not really worth 3 pts on his own and there are better free options in WGK, sure you could tune up a victor shot, OR you could get 1.5 more rockets or another artillery piece.
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Post by auraco on Jun 27, 2018 19:16:31 GMT
I'm actually surprise by the amount of time the Artillery Kapitan makes the list, sure he's not flashy but in WGK he's a decent model to camp flags, considering the low number cheap solo available, artillerist is really good on a fun carriage and I really like that the package fun carriage and artillery kapitan is exactly 20 points. I field mine regularly, which is more than I can say about my manhunters who haven't seen the table in years. The only decent caster for manhunters is Vlad2 but he really doesn't play well in Jaws of the wolf and it's the only theme where they are available. If they could get ambush from a theme (say jaws) then they might be worth it, or if not worth it, at least worthy of consideration.
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Post by bearstronaut on Jun 27, 2018 20:10:02 GMT
I'm actually surprise by the amount of time the Artillery Kapitan makes the list, sure he's not flashy but in WGK he's a decent model to camp flags, considering the low number cheap solo available, artillerist is really good on a fun carriage and I really like that the package fun carriage and artillery kapitan is exactly 20 points. I field mine regularly, which is more than I can say about my manhunters who haven't seen the table in years. The only decent caster for manhunters is Vlad2 but he really doesn't play well in Jaws of the wolf and it's the only theme where they are available. If they could get ambush from a theme (say jaws) then they might be worth it, or if not worth it, at least worthy of consideration. Agreed. The Kapitan does nothing particularly exciting, but WGK usually runs very low on solos you're willing to put forward to control a flag. Consider as well that he's the only free option for a free solo in WGK, he really should see much more play in SR2018.
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Post by cplmustard on Jun 27, 2018 20:19:49 GMT
I generally use a widowmaker marksman if I need a flag camper in WGK, but he can't be free so maybe I'll give the WGAK an honest try again
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Post by thirdorbital on Jun 27, 2018 20:38:49 GMT
I'm surprised at all the hate for Vlad3. Sure his feat's a little lackluster but he's still a Vlad, can still polish turds and has a nifty little personal threat as well. Honestly, I think his biggest issue is the loss of his horse theme, bring that back and he might be just fine.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 27, 2018 21:28:05 GMT
I'm surprised at all the hate for Vlad3. Sure his feat's a little lackluster but he's still a Vlad, can still polish turds and has a nifty little personal threat as well. Honestly, I think his biggest issue is the loss of his horse theme, bring that back and he might be just fine. It is also that he is a large based caster whose feat, spell list, (and personal threat) SCREAMS "get me close boss". But that almost DEMANDS that you case windwall (which as people have teched with magic becomes more and more problematic). Also, I think the hate for V3 is an extension for general "meh" about Uhlans. Now then. There is an "interesting" play with Sorsha0 once she comes out. SP8 + 3(charge) + 2 (BC) +1 (Dash) + Reach(2) =16 inch threat. Add in sidesteps and you are at 20 inches - an ungodly distance and very threatening _ESPECIALLY_ if you can load up on bloodquenched tokens on the way in. Hand of Fate would cost you another 2 - leaving you 4 buys which could kill a caster who was naked (or if you could flashing blade to really get all uber.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 27, 2018 22:02:27 GMT
Jacks: 3. Zerk chassis (hi, CID) 2. Demolisher 1. All characters that's not Ruin or Beast. Yes, even Behemoth, he was powercreeped into oblivion. I actually like Decimators. Berserker and Behemoth are pretty ambitious picks, you really think they're that bad now? A lot of people seem to see Big B as the reward for playing Jaws, and Berserkers may become squishier, but also cheaper? I'd love to read some of your thoughts. I can't say zerk chassis are particularly terrible, but other things are just better. I take devastator/jugg/kodiak/grolar/sprigan/marauder/decimator when I want to do a particular thing, I take zerk chassis only as a point filler. I guess Rager is cost-efficient, but we managed so long without a shield guard that I just don't care about it anymore. Big B's problem is not having a proper target in the meta. The only things it can trade up with are colossals and you can just take Marauder against them. Jaws is all about trading your cheap heavies for more expensive heavies. If Behemoth was available in other themes I'd take it for the guns.
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Post by auraco on Jun 28, 2018 2:22:46 GMT
I'm surprised at all the hate for Vlad3. Sure his feat's a little lackluster but he's still a Vlad, can still polish turds and has a nifty little personal threat as well. Honestly, I think his biggest issue is the loss of his horse theme, bring that back and he might be just fine. His feat being lackluster is an understatement. His personal output is also very dependent on what the other player allows you to do and just doesn't work out very well if he's not playing a lot of clumped up infantry. He also gets kind of screwed by having the models he likes being split in all the different themes. The question is basically can dash and hand of fate win you the game, sometime the answer is yes, but more often then not it's not enough tools to do actual work. Being on a large base is also annoying on him, he's on the squishier side for a Vlad because he's the easiest one to shoot to death, windwall has it's limits. I've played him enough to know he's terrible.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Jun 28, 2018 2:53:10 GMT
Berserker and Behemoth are pretty ambitious picks, you really think they're that bad now? A lot of people seem to see Big B as the reward for playing Jaws, and Berserkers may become squishier, but also cheaper? I'd love to read some of your thoughts. I can't say zerk chassis are particularly terrible, but other things are just better. I take devastator/jugg/kodiak/grolar/sprigan/marauder/decimator when I want to do a particular thing, I take zerk chassis only as a point filler. I guess Rager is cost-efficient, but we managed so long without a shield guard that I just don't care about it anymore. Big B's problem is not having a proper target in the meta. The only things it can trade up with are colossals and you can just take Marauder against them. Jaws is all about trading your cheap heavies for more expensive heavies. If Behemoth was available in other themes I'd take it for the guns. I am starting to potentially see some utility with Berserkers and Vlad1 once Sorscha0 comes out. Launching them 13" (14" with 1" melee) with Pathfinder across the board while benefitting from Signs & Portents is great to smash heavy infantry, or if two of them can engage a heavy or Colossal... I wouldn't mind feeding them a bit of Focus and risk them blowing up if they can kill more than they are worth. Vlad1's feat is fairly unimpressive when compared to Signs & Portents, and I would have no issues using it to have Berserkers assassinate something or be a nuisance while the rest of the army is closing in.
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leander
Junior Strategist
Posts: 185
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Post by leander on Jun 28, 2018 8:24:25 GMT
not to derail but, while i love the uhlans I personally find it idiotic they use the pommels of their lances as close combat weapons, regardless of its P+S 10 (which is still pretty pathetic), they should have a backup weapon stored on the horse's back right behind the rider, like a one handed sword or an axe since it's khador. just a pet peeve seeing an elite cavalry unit swinging an unwieldy lance in close quarters to strike enemies with its pommel.
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