|
Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 25, 2018 4:55:48 GMT
Perhaps if we had a jack like a Cyclone or a Sentinel (at similar prices), that would get the required number of infantry-killing attacks? They'll never let us not have rat 4, so even if we had this jack it would be a trash heap. Maybe if it had volley fire, but then we're just reprinting a suppression tanker with 'warjack' tacked on RAT 4 with Take Aim is (almost) the same as a non-marshalled Cyclone or Sentinel for anti-infantry output (I don't think Cygnar players are allocating focus to those jacks for boosting ranged attack rolls, so they basically get one boost normally). Meanwhile having Blessed and the potential to get to RAT 8 with aiming and Take Aim OR Rat 6 with +2 to damage rolls would make a hypothetical marshaled Khador RAT 4 Cyclone equal to or better than an existing unsupported Cygnar Cyclone.
Yes, Cygnar players probably don't run many Cyclones (especially not unsupported) and if they take a Sentinel it's for shield guard, but then they have more shooting options overall and easier access to in-faction magical shooting; if we had a RAT 4 Cyclone then maybe it would be worth it for us as it could fill that in-faction magical anti-infantry weapon niche? Obviously depends on how much it costs.
|
|
|
Post by chickenslayer on Jun 25, 2018 5:56:24 GMT
I don't expect much from this guy, but he doesn't have to do much.
I mean it'd be nice if he worked in every theme and was a Spell Slave with Sigil of Power and also came with a lifetime warranty. But that feels like wishing upon a star and, he's very much looking like a support guy to give more nice things to pick up in Wolves of Winter with your actually fairly mediocre selection of free cards.
Also, honestly, people complain too much about the lack of magic weapons anyway (which actually translates to an easy access to magic weapons anyway). It's a faction weakness, there are solutions, it's a more nuanced problem that advertised and it should not hold back or be used as an excuse to stop list building.
He'll probably be a good vehicle for fixing up Wolves of Winter though, and provide a means of getting both Ragman and "Sylys" into a list at the same time.
Would like it if he had some relevant meta spell though beyond the usual Frostbite though. Or actually synergised with Doomies, unlike basically every other Greylord who is awkwardly meant to hang out with them.
|
|
|
Post by onijet01 on Jun 25, 2018 6:51:39 GMT
Have I mentioned sigil of power on this page yet? Because this frikkin guy should have sigil of power Why should he have that ability? Im curious because at the current moment the only for sure thing is he is with greylords in theme and they are all magical. If it is a cry for a in faction version of Lady and Holt, well then you would have to apply a in faction model to cygnar and Crucible guard as well. Even menoth to a point could benifit from the same. If youre asking because you want a op solo id pass. As it is this is a greylord who will have no support (action ability) as his 3 abilities listed are passive. And he can still cast greylord spells (assumming ternon base spells and battle wizzard) Crying for magic weapons for some themes i can get but if the argument is incaporial then play a list with magic weapons. That simple.
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Jun 25, 2018 9:15:49 GMT
I agree we don't need an overpowered silver bullet solo, but saying 'just take magic' is a tricky thing for Khador.
We don't have any spell slinger casters who can mop up an incorporeal unit, we don't have any magical ranged attacks on units or any way to get them, and we only have access to magic weaponry outside of solos in one theme. Our one magical lifeline is the Forge Seer, which is a less effective option comparatively due to our lack of good light jacks to marshall.
It's a big part of why I still play out of theme, but that's got its own disadvantages, such as effectively playing down points
|
|
|
Post by welshhoppo on Jun 25, 2018 9:47:38 GMT
Thinking about it. Maybe this guy will be the trickle that starts the flood of Wolves upgrades that we need.
I agree. Khador does issues with magic, we don't use it that well. As such our "Magic Caster" Zerkova2 is very niche. Our sprays are all cold based and on models that aren't very tough. Greylords are all 13/13 and our outriders ain't that much harder.
This guy will probably see use in that theme. Which means using him with those casters. Now who runs wolves well? Well that's Zerkova2, Vlad2, Sorscha1 can do it too and there's probably a few others. Now Zerkova has no reason to take this guy while Sylys is a thing. Vlad..... Well normally he hangs around and gives out his focus. And sorscha is too nimble for this guy to keep up.
Obviously we have to wait and see what happens. But another Greylord with frostbite isn't all that great.
|
|
|
Post by onijet01 on Jun 25, 2018 11:42:19 GMT
Have you tried butcher 1 in wolves? He really does make them play interestingly. I have been experimenting with this 75pt list.
Butcher 1 w/free wardog, wolves of winter -beserker -beserker -marauder
Koldon lord Ragman
Tactical arcanist corp. w/ Valecheve Greylord Ternion Greylord Ternion Doomreavers Doomreavers Min battle machanics Greylord Outriders.
Basic play is to leverage butcher 1s feat to maximize damage. Iorn flesh starts on greylord outriders making them arm 17 and blast immune. Their extreme speed and threat makes them capable of harassment.
Between the tactical arcanist corp. And the ternions you can create a large cloud wall off of the 3 jacks and 3 man unit. Though the unit needs to run turn 1 but thats a price to pay.
Ragman can optimize the doomreavers on feat as the spell grants dark shroud meaning propperly charging doomreavers can hit at p+s 14 at @5 dice.
Butcher is good for the jacks as full throttle turns even a mat 6 beserker into a model to be feared charging.
Now if you drop the kuldon lord, or a unit of ternions you can upgrade the maraulder to ruin bit vs a huge base marader can be amazing as well. Though the list is 74 pts there is room yo ajust points as need be.
It has alot of range and clouds making it a good list i to models with limited true sight or eyeless sight
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Jun 25, 2018 12:24:18 GMT
Yes wolves of winter is one way to get magical weapons in faction, but having access to relevant in faction magical weapon in other theme would make the pairing process way more interesting than: well take wolves in all your pairing. Other faction have tools to deal with incorporeal in more than one theme, most faction have more than one theme with easy access to in faction source of relevant magical weapons. Having magical weapon is necessary in the meta, cryx is a thing and they are very much on top of competitive play, grymkin are also a thing, having jack marshalled on forge seer just isn't enough with the restriction of the magical weapons being on a marshalled jack. There is a reason why there was a cry for magic weapon during the armored corps CID, it's something we lack and it shows in competitive play, Khador doesn't make top 3 of cons very often, there is a reason for that, the top dogs have stuff that requires magical weapons to fight and our only options are sub par. Ayana & Holt are in most list outside of Wolves because they are a necessity. If the adjunct gets added to other theme than wolves and help with that I don't think it's going to break khador, it's just going to give us option to actually go up against the top dogs. Even something as minor as arcane reinforcement would go a long way to help us.
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Jun 25, 2018 16:40:31 GMT
I don't expect much from this guy, but he doesn't have to do much. I mean it'd be nice if he worked in every theme and was a Spell Slave with Sigil of Power and also came with a lifetime warranty. But that feels like wishing upon a star and, he's very much looking like a support guy to give more nice things to pick up in Wolves of Winter with your actually fairly mediocre selection of free cards. Also, honestly, people complain too much about the lack of magic weapons anyway (which actually translates to an easy access to magic weapons anyway). It's a faction weakness, there are solutions, it's a more nuanced problem that advertised and it should not hold back or be used as an excuse to stop list building. He'll probably be a good vehicle for fixing up Wolves of Winter though, and provide a means of getting both Ragman and "Sylys" into a list at the same time. Would like it if he had some relevant meta spell though beyond the usual Frostbite though. Or actually synergised with Doomies, unlike basically every other Greylord who is awkwardly meant to hang out with them See I think that is when I just scratch my head and wonder the game you are playing. Last night played Sorscha3 into Primal Terrors S3 with Beast, 2 ragers, Shocks, DemoCorp, some tankers, eliminator unit.Kallus 1 with double chosen, Double Hellmouths. Blight bringer, Gollab, a bit of support - and then the game winning piece - a Swarm.Great fun grindy game. I love those. But the game was essentially over as the blight bringer hung out as a gun platform with the swarm camping a back flag. Tankers were generally controlled with the hellmouths. Nothing that could get back to the swarm (I did pick the objective with magic weapons so Sorscha was available to send pot shots off at the Gremlin to hope for the 1 in 3 drift and then be at dice minus 7 - but she had to work around/deal with tentacles most of the game). Chosen just jammed and did what they do best into a faction without commonplace anti-healing. I think I lost 3-8. It isn't that incorp is game breaking. It is that it can create serious tilting advantages and makes for near perfect contesters/scorers - often when combined with jammers. So whereas a very reasonable strategy for that play is to "shoot the camper" you can't DO that (without magic weapon). You can't do it x2 if swarms and stealth.
|
|
|
Post by onijet01 on Jun 26, 2018 7:11:45 GMT
I don't expect much from this guy, but he doesn't have to do much. I mean it'd be nice if he worked in every theme and was a Spell Slave with Sigil of Power and also came with a lifetime warranty. But that feels like wishing upon a star and, he's very much looking like a support guy to give more nice things to pick up in Wolves of Winter with your actually fairly mediocre selection of free cards. Also, honestly, people complain too much about the lack of magic weapons anyway (which actually translates to an easy access to magic weapons anyway). It's a faction weakness, there are solutions, it's a more nuanced problem that advertised and it should not hold back or be used as an excuse to stop list building. He'll probably be a good vehicle for fixing up Wolves of Winter though, and provide a means of getting both Ragman and "Sylys" into a list at the same time. Would like it if he had some relevant meta spell though beyond the usual Frostbite though. Or actually synergised with Doomies, unlike basically every other Greylord who is awkwardly meant to hang out with them See I think that is when I just scratch my head and wonder the game you are playing. Last night played Sorscha3 into Primal Terrors S3 with Beast, 2 ragers, Shocks, DemoCorp, some tankers, eliminator unit.Kallus 1 with double chosen, Double Hellmouths. Blight bringer, Gollab, a bit of support - and then the game winning piece - a Swarm.Great fun grindy game. I love those. But the game was essentially over as the blight bringer hung out as a gun platform with the swarm camping a back flag. Tankers were generally controlled with the hellmouths. Nothing that could get back to the swarm (I did pick the objective with magic weapons so Sorscha was available to send pot shots off at the Gremlin to hope for the 1 in 3 drift and then be at dice minus 7 - but she had to work around/deal with tentacles most of the game). Chosen just jammed and did what they do best into a faction without commonplace anti-healing. I think I lost 3-8. It isn't that incorp is game breaking. It is that it can create serious tilting advantages and makes for near perfect contesters/scorers - often when combined with jammers. So whereas a very reasonable strategy for that play is to "shoot the camper" you can't DO that (without magic weapon). You can't do it x2 if swarms and stealth. Dont mean to be rude (as im curiouse about something) Did you not shoe horn yourself into the problem of being not able to have many magic answers by taking eliminators in the first place? I know they are a good unit and all but their use id very limited (one dimensional) could you maybe have made betteruse of croes cut throughts or alexia and the rissen to have options left of magical offensive attacks is gremlin swarm are your big issue? I know the points are more and you get 2 free solos vs 3 but ive found that options are far superior to shoe horning a list for a 3rd solo.
|
|
|
Post by chickenslayer on Jun 26, 2018 8:26:42 GMT
Furthermore, if we take your example game and just *Give* you Sigil, free of charge, would you actually be able to do anything different with that list?
Your problem is much less that it's a gremlins swarm, which btw you kill at a much better value of Dice-5, and more that your list couldn't reach that guy in the first place. You'd have basically the exact same problem if that Swarm was instead 3 Spell Martyrs, and worse problems if that was a Monger Warchief or Ammok. Especially since that scenario I'm quite sure is Recon, one of the most live of all scenarios.
You didn't even say the actually ridiculous thing you can do with Gremlins, such as hide one of those asshats behind a Thing in the corner of your zone.
Now if you bleeted about how the problem was double Wraith Engines and you got randomly gear checked by them then you'd have some legs to stand on, but given you didn't and just generalised the issue as Mweh, magic weapons, plz give me Whizzard Bro 2 Fix you've stopped thinking about the problem properly and realising that it's primarily an issue of 2 factions and sometimes one caster in Cygnar, but also that you still have to *Win the attrition for any of this to be relevant*. If those gremlins were spell martyrs you'd instead be complaining, quite rightfully, that primal terrors is Horseshit
You want to know what game I actually play? One where given your list and a hatred of Gremlins I'd look at giving Sorscha Reinholdt. Fits nicely, Sorscha appreciates the rerolls and the reload, gives a similar but alternative model to Sylys and, given that 5/6 scenarios have objectives, also allow you to have a real answer at range to Gremlins
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Jun 26, 2018 8:32:12 GMT
Dont mean to be rude (as im curiouse about something) Did you not shoe horn yourself into the problem of being not able to have many magic answers by taking eliminators in the first place? I know they are a good unit and all but their use id very limited (one dimensional) could you maybe have made betteruse of croes cut throughts or alexia and the rissen to have options left of magical offensive attacks is gremlin swarm are your big issue? I know the points are more and you get 2 free solos vs 3 but ive found that options are far superior to shoe horning a list for a 3rd solo. Not to undermine your point, but it works the other way too. Shoe-horning Aiyanna and Holt into a list on the off-chance you meet incorporeal is inefficient in a different way. Adding Valachev helps give viability in more matchups, but at 12 points for a +2 damage boost, that's also incredibly inefficient. Sooo many points for a limited application. Adding Alexia, Croes, or the Tactical Arcanist Corps is an option, but if all you are taking them for is magical weapons, that's still shoe-horning. And on the last point, I absolutely agree. Free solo quantity and choice are super important, and yes, two solos with options can be better than three without. I always scratch my head a bit at people who started taking Yuri every time in Jaws just because he's the most points, disregarding the fact that they have no decent solos for scoring their flag, for example. I've actually gone further, recently, and swung right back round to not playing theme for one of my lists. The loss of two free solos and some unhelpful benefits has been far outweighed by the ability to take actual shooting and magic options.
|
|
|
Post by onijet01 on Jun 26, 2018 11:39:25 GMT
Dont mean to be rude (as im curiouse about something) Did you not shoe horn yourself into the problem of being not able to have many magic answers by taking eliminators in the first place? I know they are a good unit and all but their use id very limited (one dimensional) could you maybe have made betteruse of croes cut throughts or alexia and the rissen to have options left of magical offensive attacks is gremlin swarm are your big issue? I know the points are more and you get 2 free solos vs 3 but ive found that options are far superior to shoe horning a list for a 3rd solo. Not to undermine your point, but it works the other way too. Shoe-horning Aiyanna and Holt into a list on the off-chance you meet incorporeal is inefficient in a different way. Adding Valachev helps give viability in more matchups, but at 12 points for a +2 damage boost, that's also incredibly inefficient. Sooo many points for a limited application. Adding Alexia, Croes, or the Tactical Arcanist Corps is an option, but if all you are taking them for is magical weapons, that's still shoe-horning. And on the last point, I absolutely agree. Free solo quantity and choice are super important, and yes, two solos with options can be better than three without. I always scratch my head a bit at people who started taking Yuri every time in Jaws just because he's the most points, disregarding the fact that they have no decent solos for scoring their flag, for example. I've actually gone further, recently, and swung right back round to not playing theme for one of my lists. The loss of two free solos and some unhelpful benefits has been far outweighed by the ability to take actual shooting and magic options. No not at all i kinda agree. I made mentiin of alexia 1 and the risen because she is such a good unit. I like her ability to plop down a weapon master solo and her ability to shunt limited damage, or buy melee attacks and boosts. With Valcheve it makes the already fast unit faster and allows her faction buffs. Croes are mentioned as a fair speedy alternate to the eliminatores because they are just good. Best at back strikes and do amazing damage but silence is also a great ability as it stops some casters cold. (Well helps to make it so they can not spell assassinate.) Vs hordes it also has game if your opponent only has one beast with a targetable damage buff (rage/primal) it can force the caster to use fury rather than a beast. Archanist core well i run them in my abouve b1 list so i already like them. I know eliminators are good but i dont see a reason everyone is so hung on them. (Again off yopic so back on to the main topic) I can not wait to see what mahic ability the new solo has and enjoy his 3 passive buff idea.
|
|
|
Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 26, 2018 12:26:28 GMT
Khador has big problems with things that can't be answered numerically. Incorp is one of those on/off things that can't be answered numerically. Also control, but control has been toned down.
|
|
|
Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 26, 2018 12:50:09 GMT
Croes are mentioned as a fair speedy alternate to the eliminatores because they are just good. Best at back strikes and do amazing damage but silence is also a great ability as it stops some casters cold. (Well helps to make it so they can not spell assassinate.) Vs hordes it also has game if your opponent only has one beast with a targetable damage buff (rage/primal) it can force the caster to use fury rather than a beast. With the short range and not-amazing accuracy (not when it comes to landing hits on warcasters anyway) do you actually find it very useful against warcasters/warlocks? Or were you talking about spellcasters in general, in which case which ones have you had success with it against? I love the Cutthroats, I just haven't personally gotten much done with Silence - not that I've tried very hard or anything, it's one of those abilities that I tend to forget about. I did try to pull some jank with it in MkII with Strak1's Sentry spell (back when it let you take a shot in your opponent's turn), but didn't really get anywhere (I don't think it stopped a warbeast from using it's animi back then, so I was aiming for a caster).
|
|
|
Post by onijet01 on Jun 26, 2018 12:58:29 GMT
Croes are mentioned as a fair speedy alternate to the eliminatores because they are just good. Best at back strikes and do amazing damage but silence is also a great ability as it stops some casters cold. (Well helps to make it so they can not spell assassinate.) Vs hordes it also has game if your opponent only has one beast with a targetable damage buff (rage/primal) it can force the caster to use fury rather than a beast. With the short range and not-amazing accuracy (not when it comes to landing hits on warcasters anyway) do you actually find it very useful against warcasters/warlocks? Or were you talking about spellcasters in general, in which case which ones have you had success with it against? I love the Cutthroats, I just haven't personally gotten much done with Silence - not that I've tried very hard or anything, it's one of those abilities that I tend to forget about. I did try to pull some jank with it in MkII with Strak1's Sentry spell (back when it let you take a shot in your opponent's turn), but didn't really get anywhere (I don't think it stopped a warbeast from using it's animi back then, so I was aiming for a caster). Ive used them to a good effect vs warbeasts of all things. My meta makes good use of rush, and rage animi. And dispite their average rat 6 on croe the silence has been golden. Being able to take the warbeast like a single axer, or mauler and make ot so the beast can not use the animus on another beast (mulg or a basher) has been a great boon. Add that croe is always the last man standi g in his unit and you can always use silence till the very end. Kill casters i. Cephilix after tk opponents caster and boosted attack and damage rolls from 6 to 10 models is a good effect. (Again one way to use a caster but not khador) It also can stop deathjacks spell casting if need be as deathjack. Casts a spell.
|
|