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Post by Netherby on Jun 9, 2018 6:08:40 GMT
The Gaspy3 Slayers list has a few things you need to consider if you're going to infantry spam...
-First is that he can collect souls really easily, so a single good Trample can translate into an extra two or three fully loaded Slayers.
-Second is they threat a 12" charge, with 3 initials that are all strong enough to easily kill ARM 20 single wound models (that's 27 attacks from just initials). That out threats most infantry without a speed buff of some sort. Gaspy also has Calamity, so even if you can skew your def/arm to a point that's a problem he can bring it back down AND he has Hex Blast, so any upkeeps can be removed...
-Third is that even if you can block LoS or try to jam them up, they have a 9" walk threat and can still trample 11". With Carapace they don't really care about taking free strikes when they trample either.
-Finally there is Ashen Veil, which lets him set up a little brick of DEF 15 Slayers vs living models. Reach weapons can help if you have the right angles, but it still makes life difficult.
On top of all that, on turn one they can all be sitting 15" off your deployment line.
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Post by jonnyboy on Jun 9, 2018 6:27:53 GMT
So zerkova might be a bad dro, but what about harkevich with S0? Juggernaut/maruser spam?
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Post by auraco on Jun 9, 2018 11:55:56 GMT
Going the jackspam route especially with hark seems like a terrible idea, the list doesn’t have much to prevent an arc node from going for sorscha0, your jacks will be outnumbered. And with combo strike you will lose system before you get there. A jack heavy list lile that is also going to really fuel Gaspy3’s feat. It’s a lose lose scenario in my book because Hark jackspam isn’t very good into Slayerspam but it’s also not very good into most of the rest of cryx.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 9, 2018 12:35:48 GMT
Yeah, Jaws vs. Gaspy3 is skewed hard against us: - their jacks are cheaper - they have better defensive stats - they threat longer - they outfocus us (Gaspy3 feat, more base attacks) - they have better support, machine wraiths are a major pain for jacks, particularly they render the usual Devastator counterpunch tactic useless
I guess we have more pow which may end up still not in our favor because defensive stats and attack volume. It's like we fight mirror match, except they are better in every single regard. I don't see Jaws ever winning bar having better dice rolls. Maybe journemeny will change things because that's 8 more focus worth of resources.
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Post by auraco on Jun 9, 2018 13:03:55 GMT
Yeah, Jaws vs. Gaspy3 is skewed hard against us: - their jacks are cheaper - they have better defensive stats - they threat longer - they outfocus us (Gaspy3 feat, more base attacks) - they have better support, machine wraiths are a major pain for jacks, particularly they render the usual Devastator counterpunch tactic useless I guess we have more pow which may end up still not in our favor because defensive stats and attack volume. It's like we fight mirror match, except they are better in every single regard. I don't see Jaws ever winning bar having better dice rolls. Maybe journemeny will change things because that's 8 more focus worth of resources. Not only do they threat longuer, the list has way more scenario presence. If you go second with an Harkevich jackspam list I don't even know how you're suppose to not lose on scenario, sure he also has mobility but even with that his jacks are not going to be nearly as far up the board as Gaspy's jacks. Gaspy3 slayerspam is not unbeateable, but what annoys me about the list is that it's just so much stronger than the other jackspam options out there. Amon Jackspam, Vyros2 jackspam, Hark jackspam, well they are not a problem when Gaspy3 can just casually steamroll that. With people teching against Gaspy3 it will give them a list to play into any other jackspam anyway.
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Post by Netherby on Jun 9, 2018 15:36:47 GMT
The first problem with Hark jack spam, is that it's bad... You can't really take awesome stuff like forge seers with Ragers, everything has to be in his battle group.
But let's consider the match up: Gaspy runs all his jacks up and is sitting 15" off your deployment line. Two of your jacks can threat 12", the rest are at 10". So you have two options, either advance everything 2.9" out of your deployment or feat and run everything 12" up.
If you feat and run up he's got lots of options, but the most simple one is to feat and position to block you out of scenario (throwing or slamming any models that are contesting). At this point S0 is mostly wasted points. You now have to run stuff to contest and eat the free strikes (if you can even get in) and try to kill enough stuff that his counter punch is too weak to break you. And this is where it falls apart, because Hark simply doesn't output that much damage. Every focus you spend is going to end up on a Slayer next turn as well. So he now gets a big turn in which to kill/cripple your stuff and can spend the rest of the game keeping you from scoring while he gets a couple each turn.
Okay, so feat + run seems like a bad idea as we give up our advantage of attritioning better, so what about the other option? You can hold feat and advance some distance instead. How far you advance really depends on the scenario, but you should be trying to position so that they don't score more than 1 point in the next round. You can still win from 2, but if they get up 3 on the first turn of scoring you have to assassinate next turn.
So you can advance 2.9" to stay out of threat of everything but spells. But actually we don't care that much about getting charged by a couple of Slayers (especially if we have some well spaced out mechanics). What we don't want is to be within walking range. We also kinda need to be in threat range with at least some of our stuff and we want to push heavily towards one flank if possible. So S0 can be useful here, letting us position 12" away with some stuff. Other things can be 10" away where they wont get mobbed by more than 2 Slayers.
In this position Gaspy either has to commit some/all of his force or back off. Either choice lets us play a game, but you need to remember that if you're going to spend big on focus under his feat it needs to be a crippling blow.
So yeah, you can probably play a game with Hark spam. But note that we still start the game out on the back foot and need to be very careful with our positioning, while the Gaspy player just spends 30 seconds running everything forward. But the Hark list is going to be countered by what everyone else brought to beat Gaspy and he's also just not very good into most stuff any way...
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Post by sand20go on Jun 10, 2018 13:55:34 GMT
Could someone post up a Gaspy 2 slayer spam build (which they have seen on) for a "Beat the list"? I haven't faced the full 9 slayer boat.. People want to talk about it - lets talk tactics in respect to our lists.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 10, 2018 14:27:43 GMT
It seems to me that if you KNOW you are going to be getting Gaspy 2 then there is an advantage here in playing Butcher 3 Jaws with kossites. It isn't a "bad" build anyway. Use the hillbillies to deal with scenarios like Spread the net. Go minimum or double minimum depending on points. They have ONE job to do (contest) Then load up on Clams. Basically squeeze in at LEAST 3. Hopefully more. Ideally also marshal at least one devestator to a Forgeseer for magic weapons. I probably also would bring at least a min mechanic so you can force something of a "you need to kill me all the way" Then essentially it is operation Run at gaspy. While Combostrike is VERY powerful - it is ONE POW 22 charge attack. That is not going to take out a Khador heavy. With Mobility up (if he wants the alpha) that leaves him 4 to fuel pre-feat. It is a question of how many he has to put into you and what your jack situation is after that. Obviously if he can remove all your jacks on a straight 1 to 1 basis you lose cause Butcher will get overwhelmed the following. But consider..... conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0xdI7q7q7qkZeQhF7p8n8y868cKhador Army - 71 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf [Butcher 3] Kommander Zoktavir, The Butcher Unleashed [+22] - Devastator [14] - Devastator [14] - Devastator [14] - Rager [10] - Ruin [17] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] - Destroyer [14] Manhunter [0(4)] Yuri the Axe [0(6)] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Kossite Woodsmen (min) [7] OK. SO WORST CASE - (domination, Calamity) Dice +5 on the slayers charge or 2.5 columns on a devestator. Ruin can knock of Ashen Veil on the counter and then butcher can eat the shit out of the slayers. He SHOULD be able to do it out of Gaspy's control (Butcher threatening a vanilla 12). Your Kossites are there to help - granting that this is sad kossites that are fueling soul collection (do what you can). Yuri and the manhunter can at least keep things honest - thresher and treewalker providing some real benefits - up to and including denying Gaspy a center forest to hide behind. I am not sure it is a 50/50 game (I see the game state after the big turn being Gaspy, 2-3 slayers against Butcher with Ruin, Marshalled destroyer and then a handful of Kossites. But SEEMS like it could work. You definately need a way to "trade up" and really our only caster that can do that effectively any more, in to a list with both carapace and unyiedling, in Butcher 3.
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Post by auraco on Jun 10, 2018 21:19:02 GMT
I think butcher will just get killed in that scenario. Since the army has a limited amout of hard hitting models.
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Post by Netherby on Jun 11, 2018 7:00:45 GMT
I feel like everyone is really over thinking the match up...
All you need is a decent ARM skew with a bit of scenario support. As soon as P+S 16 attacks are bouncing the list is reduced to making single combo strikes with each 'jack. Even against a completely open model they can't land more than 3 hits and you can easily reduce that with placement. Yes, they will do some damage, but nothing that can't be repaired. Now you just need to be able to kill DEF 13, ARM 19, 28 box models.
The real problem is that when they see you have this ARM skew list they won't drop Gaspy3.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jun 11, 2018 7:11:12 GMT
I mean the easy answer to Gaspy3(btw) is Irusk2 in the Legion of Steel. With that much precision strike and knockdown flying around. It's super easy for models like Uhlans to charge a Slayer from outside its threat, knock it down with both knock down initial attacks (ideally) take out the things cortex and then repo away to safety. The slayer then can't hurt you at all. Put battle lust on and your average Uhlan will kill half a slayer itself.
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Post by auraco on Jun 11, 2018 10:08:42 GMT
Irusk2 legion of steel, or legion of steel in general, brings us back to the problem of list chicken though, Legion of steel can't handle any amount of incorporeal, and is generally at a disadvantage against scourge of the broken coast and slaughter fleet too.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jun 11, 2018 11:11:42 GMT
Irusk2 legion of steel, or legion of steel in general, brings us back to the problem of list chicken though, Legion of steel can't handle any amount of incorporeal, and is generally at a disadvantage against scourge of the broken coast and slaughter fleet too. I wouldn't say we are at much of a disadvantage against pirates. MAT8+ across the board means they die on sixes. And Uhlans can easily kill 3 a piece. Granted Strakhov2 might be better to rank the alpha on the way in. But they can't jam you up without getting whacked back.
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Post by auraco on Jun 11, 2018 11:34:27 GMT
Smog belchers totally shut down Ulhans, well pikemen too but it's a bit less bad for pikemen. It's the amount of pacman model in slaughter fleet that is a problem for legion of steel. Blood gorgers for an entire unit of pacman. Gerlak for the grevious wound pacman that ignores your tough. Pikemen also don't have very good defensive stats, so are easy prey for the pacman models in slaughter fleet.
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Post by Netherby on Jun 11, 2018 14:37:22 GMT
I think this list would beat down on Gaspy3 nicely, but what Cryx lists would it struggle with?
It works into Gaspy3 with a few tricks. Obviously it equals and exceeds the opposing threat ranges, but you can also massively mess with his lack of focus by knocking multiple things down with your slams and throws. Pick your kill targets for the Juggernauts and the aim to knock down as many of the others as possible. Kossites keep you in scenario and hopefully take out Vociferon before they become focus. Lot's of spare mechanics to double duty on repairs and running to contest.
[Vladimir 1] Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Prince [+28] - Juggernaut [13] - Juggernaut [13] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - War Dog [3] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [0(4)] - Rager [10] Yuri the Axe [0(6)] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Kossite Woodsmen (min) [7]
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