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Post by jonnyboy on Jun 6, 2018 22:46:09 GMT
When I hear boogieman i think Gaspy3 slayer spam, Nemo3, and ghost fleet. I've faced slayer slam with LEGOS and it went quite well, but i can see it being terrifying for other themes. Ghost fleet did get a bit of a nerf, but i think it's still a strong list.
Right now im dedicated on brining Irusk1 in AK, I've really liked his toolbox for this theme. Vs Nemo3 i think AK has a good chance, but vs slayer spam/ghost fleet I'm not so sure. I've been dojoing B3 in WGK and Z1 in jaws, both could be strong lists, just not sure they can stand up against any of the cryx/cygnar drops.
Does anyone else have a list they've found successful against both slayer spam and ghost fleet? Possibly against any other boogieman esque lists out there?
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Post by Netherby on Jun 7, 2018 7:16:20 GMT
Firstly not all boogieman lists are actually boogieman's for Khador. Secondly what even ARE the boogieman lists these days?
Gaspy3 Slayers is a bad drop into most Khador lists, it doesn't deal with high ARM at all well. Your biggest problem is scenario due to the amount of slams/throws it can do from 12" away. If they go first they will be past the centre line and threatening charges 3" outside your deployment. That is what makes it a monster. But it's not like he's fuelling those jacks, and even if he was there is nothing in the list that really makes them hit hard enough to care about. So you're looking at each one wanting to just charge and do a single P+S 22 attack. It's a good list and it's terrifying for other factions, it still will give you a game but it's not something to build to beat.
Nemo3 isn't really a problem for Khador either? He's annoying, but still struggles to deal with decent ARM. Just space your high value targets more than 4" apart so he doesn't get free damage, be mindful of leap assassination vectors and it's not that much of a problem. The changes to spark nodes removes a lot of the janky assassinations and also means that high/stealth models aren't auto removed any more. So not really a list I would be looking to build to counter as something in my pairing should already do fine into it.
I haven't seen anyone running Ghost Fleet since the nerf. It doesn't just straight up delete all your stuff any more. It still has strong assassination play and is problematic on scenario due to our lack of magical attacks. You don't need to build to directly counter it, but if it's on your radar as a threat you need to be thinking about having a list that is hard to assassinate into and probably also includes A&H.
I don't think you can really make one list that takes on both Slayer spam and Ghost Fleet. Those are two very different beasts. You would be looking more at a list that takes on both Slayers and Nemo then something else to deal with Ghost Fleet type problems.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 7, 2018 9:54:37 GMT
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Post by auraco on Jun 7, 2018 12:10:52 GMT
NetherbyMy experience against Gaspy3 Slayerspam hasn't been an easy match up at all. The scenario pressure from that list especially if it goes first is insane. As in I have no idea how to get something on your side of the table to contest your flag insane. Legion of steel is not a bad drop against it, but if you bring legion of steel you end up in a list chicken because every other theme in cryx is at an advantage against legion of steel. A list that forces you into a list chicken at best is still what I would consider a boogeyman. After Nemo3's nerf I don't think hell be a boogeyman anymore, it will be a strong list but not being able to use sparknodes means there are way more counterplays now, stealth becomes an option again, so does blocking LOS, so clouds also work, this opens up a lot of new options what weren't there before suddently OW2 and Zerkova1 become interesting drops regardless of theme since losing the option to shoot firefly in the back drastically reduces the threat range in a lot of Nemo3's army. Armored Corps as a whole also seems well equiped to play against that. Ghost fleet is still strong, but it's way more manageable than it was before, the pirates hit less hard and Denny1 lost scourge, so no more source of auto knockdown for the easy casterkill. I wouldn't call it a boogeyman anymore even if playing against it is not a walk in the park. hocestbellumMy B3 WGK list is very strong and can play in a lot of stuff, but it does have bad match ups, some of them are the boogeymen. First, its not a good Gaspy3 Slayerspam list, when I played that match up in the OTC final I got crushed. Not a match up I would want to play again. It does play well in the other cryx boogeyman though, it was originally designed with pre nerf Denny1 Ghost fleet in mind and performed well for me pre nerf, I haven't played it against the list post nerf, but it should just perform better than it did before. The list can also play into Skarre1 Dark Host, it's not an easy match up, but it definitively has game. It's not a list that plays well into Nemo3, even post nerf since it usually doesn't play well into gunlines. The only defensive tech against shooting in the list is sac pawn on B3 and Nemo3 has no problem killing winterguard in droves when they don't have any defensive tech. ELeap also don't trigger vengeance because of reasons... I don't expect the list to perform well against Sloan either, although this one might go better than the match up against Nemo3. It can play into Haley3, again not an easy match up considering Haley3's kit but it can play better than a lot of typical khador list into the match up. It plays well into grymkin, depending on your stance on grymkin being a boogeyman. Child is the roughest match up for the list and it's manageable and Child is not very popular for some reason... The list folds to Rashet winds of death, hard, same issue as Nemo3 or Sloan, it does ok against a couple of guns or combine arm list but it can't take care of a dedicated gunline. At the moment I have a team tournament comming up in a week so I'm trying to cover more match up and I'm pairing B3 with OW2 in an anti gunline list. This should allow me to cover most of the cygnar and skorne list that cause B3 problem. My only real dodge for the tournament is Gaspy3 slayerspam.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 7, 2018 12:55:53 GMT
The speed of the Slayerspam is something that bothers me. I've been testing a Strakhov1 jack-heavy Wolves list with three units of Doom Reavers, which might work, but it feels very one dimensional. But when that dimension is 'I can hit you with Doom Reavers before your second turn' it can be pretty fun. Hypothetically you can charge something 33" from your board edge turn 1 (16" deploy, 2" apparition, 13" charge, 2" reach), but I can only get Strakhov to clip targets 31" away with his feat (10" deploy, 9" charge, 12" control zone)
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Post by auraco on Jun 7, 2018 13:10:28 GMT
My worries about Strakhov1 in that scenario is strakhov himself getting killed, he need to be close to the targets his doom reavers are going to charge and that leaves him in charge range of said slayers. Mat 7 on doom reavers is good but it's not exactly reliable against def 13 slayers and one of the slayer can also have ashen veil so the doom reavers will miss against that one more often than not. I think Vlad2 is going to be a better way to go to fight against Gaspy3. At the moment Wolves of winter is the way to go, but once the new man o war models drop in a week Vlad2 armored corps should have pretty good tools to deal with it.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 7, 2018 13:14:59 GMT
Gaspy will always put you into list chicken. You want A&H against the rest of Cryx, but you want an anti heavy spam list like legos/v2 ak against Gaspy and A&H will always be bad pick there. The only list that can cover all of Cryx in theory is Wolves, but it's underpowered inherently.
I think top meta priorities are: solid anti-gunline list, solid anti-heavy spam list. The latter one should be playable into Cryx, so it needs A&H or Wolves theme. Basically second list is B3/V1/OW2 wgk or V2 Wolves and that's about it. Maybe it's possible to build an AK to have A&H and still rival wgk in output, I have a few ideas, but they aren't tested. Maybe V2 feating on demos is all it takes to beat Gaspy so you can take A&H and get away with it.
Ironically list that deals with Gaspy/something Cryx will also deal with anything Grymkin, so you get two for the price of one if you figure it out.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 7, 2018 13:23:41 GMT
My worries about Strakhov1 in that scenario is strakhov himself getting killed, he need to be close to the targets his doom reavers are going to charge and that leaves him in charge range of said slayers. Mat 7 on doom reavers is good but it's not exactly reliable against def 13 slayers and one of the slayer can also have ashen veil so the doom reavers will miss against that one more often than not. I think Vlad2 is going to be a better way to go to fight against Gaspy3. At the moment Wolves of winter is the way to go, but once the new man o war models drop in a week Vlad2 armored corps should have pretty good tools to deal with it. Yeah, although the fact that he should be sat on 6 focus with DEF17 to melee and stealth vs shooting at least makes him a bit more survivable. I'll absolutely take 6s to hit! I also find you don't need to actually destroy them; lopping off an arm is enough to remove most of their threat vs a Khador heavy. Still, 10 is a lot to chew through. My other list is AC (See-sawing between Kozlov and Irusk2), so I don't feel like I want to run the same theme twice.
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Post by Netherby on Jun 7, 2018 15:24:23 GMT
Netherby My experience against Gaspy3 Slayerspam hasn't been an easy match up at all. The scenario pressure from that list especially if it goes first is insane. As in I have no idea how to get something on your side of the table to contest your flag insane. Legion of steel is not a bad drop against it, but if you bring legion of steel you end up in a list chicken because every other theme in cryx is at an advantage against legion of steel. A list that forces you into a list chicken at best is still what I would consider a boogeyman. I wouldn't call it an easy match up. I mean you generally don't want to drop WGK into it, but most of your Jaws, LegoS and AC lists give it a bad time. The only thing you have to worry about is scenario and that's only a big threat if they go first. You do need a plan for how you're going to manage the scenario pressure if they go first. The real problem is that Cryx pretty much always force a list chicken. It doesn't really matter what pairing they bring, they are all good and all ask rather different questions. The questions are answerable, but not by one list and they STILL have a decent game into you even if you win the list chicken. Whilst losing the list chicken means you have very little game into them. Cryx is just a boogieman for Khador. It's always a game of list chicken and they still get to play their game even when we win at list select. I think the question becomes: Can you write a list to drop into all things Cryx? It needs to be at least better than a 50% or you're better off playing list chicken though...
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Jun 7, 2018 16:39:01 GMT
Wolves of Winter (greylord version) plays pretty well into the gaspy3 spam.
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Post by auraco on Jun 7, 2018 20:56:56 GMT
Netherby My experience against Gaspy3 Slayerspam hasn't been an easy match up at all. The scenario pressure from that list especially if it goes first is insane. As in I have no idea how to get something on your side of the table to contest your flag insane. Legion of steel is not a bad drop against it, but if you bring legion of steel you end up in a list chicken because every other theme in cryx is at an advantage against legion of steel. A list that forces you into a list chicken at best is still what I would consider a boogeyman. I wouldn't call it an easy match up. I mean you generally don't want to drop WGK into it, but most of your Jaws, LegoS and AC lists give it a bad time. The only thing you have to worry about is scenario and that's only a big threat if they go first. You do need a plan for how you're going to manage the scenario pressure if they go first. The real problem is that Cryx pretty much always force a list chicken. It doesn't really matter what pairing they bring, they are all good and all ask rather different questions. The questions are answerable, but not by one list and they STILL have a decent game into you even if you win the list chicken. Whilst losing the list chicken means you have very little game into them. Cryx is just a boogieman for Khador. It's always a game of list chicken and they still get to play their game even when we win at list select. I think the question becomes: Can you write a list to drop into all things Cryx? It needs to be at least better than a 50% or you're better off playing list chicken though... How exactly do you manage it if you go second against Gaspy3? My experience have always been going second against that list and simply getting locked out of scenario. Otherwise I've played with my B3 list against Scourge of the broken coast, dark host and ghost fleet enough to know it works well. I haven't played it against Slaughter fleet yet, but on paper it looks like a manageable match up for Butcher. I'd be curious to try the list against Denny2 black industries, on paper it looks ok, can't say much more than that, it's only Gaspy3 that screws that list in the cryx match up, otherwise it doesn't have any particularly good match ups against cryx, but it will do well enough to give you a game. Keep in mind that the B3 list in WGK is far from a skew so it rarely has overwhelmingly good match ups, but it can play and have around 50/50 into next to everything, which I consider better than having a list chicken. Vlad2 Wolves of winter is good in most of cryx, it totally folds to ghost fleet though, too much shooting, but ghost fleet isn't super popular these days. I'd be curious to see how well it works against Gaspy3 Slayerspam, haven't played that match up yet.
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Post by auraco on Jun 7, 2018 20:58:46 GMT
Wolves of Winter (greylord version) plays pretty well into the gaspy3 spam. Do you have an exact list in mind? I fail to see how short range unboosted pow 12 that feed Gaspy3's feat would work against 9 heavy jacks. Sure it ignores carapace and unyeilding, but still pow 12 against arm 17 will take a long time to eat through 28 boxes jacks.
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Post by Netherby on Jun 8, 2018 6:22:35 GMT
So, going second into Gaspy3 depends a lot on the scenario. While it's great at pushing you back on the top of 1 and denying scoring, it's not great at actually scoring many of the scenarios. They deployed first so you have a reasonable idea what non-jack elements they are going to try and score on and with what. So you have some opportunity to counter deploy if relevant.
But basically the plan is to bulk up one side and smash through that flank then pivot 90º, while delaying scoring of the other side (if possible). This prevents Gaspy from sitting in the middle of the table, generally lets you get a point or two and buys you some turns to win the game. Effectiveness does vary between scenario.
I'm thinking it could be possible to have a list that plays into everything except Ghost Fleet or a list that plays into everything except Gaspy3. Ghost Fleet isn't that popular any more, so you could probably ignore it...
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Post by jonnyboy on Jun 8, 2018 10:30:57 GMT
It's been awhile so i don't remember, but was deny losing scourge the big nerf to ghost fleet?
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 8, 2018 10:31:27 GMT
No Gaspy3 in our area. How does it lock you out of scenario? He goes first, runs. You run wg forward with tough. If he commits to killing wg in melee, you dismantle his jacks with B3/jacks and contest/jam with toughed wg. If he doesn't you contest/jam with toughed wg and shoot. At some point he will have to commit to meleeing wg because he won't score otherwise. Am I missing something? Is the sheer number of slayers a thing that allows him to melee and not get punished for it?
It's been awhile so i don't remember, but was deny losing scourge the big nerf to ghost fleet? Denny lost "no charge" on feat, scourge and pirates lost second attack. It was a big nerf to both the denial aspect and offensive output of the list.
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