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Post by welshhoppo on Jun 8, 2018 12:50:34 GMT
It's the 11 inch tramples. They can easily trample over large amounts of infantry and they don't care about tough because it doesn't prevent movement as impact attacks do.
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Post by auraco on Jun 8, 2018 13:43:49 GMT
Yeah the tramples can deal with the infantry and there is only so much work Butcher himself can do without getting killed, sure he can go all in and kill three or four slayers, but that leaves him very vulnerable and very in range of the rest of the army, add Gaspy3's feat to that and butcher is very killable.
Going second against Gaspy3 might be better on some scenario than others, but in recon2 or spread the net contesting his flag is going to be an absolute nightmare and the fight will all happen on your side of the board. I really hate spread the net for the advantage it gives to the player going first, especially with this kind of super fast army.
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Post by jonnyboy on Jun 8, 2018 14:04:19 GMT
Zerkova jaws might be a solid drop here, or hark kodiak cloud wall. Tramples are find and dandy, but they do lose their intials, which the list relies heavily upon.
My only experience was with LEGOS, and he struggled to dent the list even with charges/initials.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 8, 2018 14:07:45 GMT
Has anyone tried Zerkova1 into Gaspy3? What you can't see you can't charge. The feat also helps reduce the threat range to a manageable 7 inch waddle and wack. Probably best Fangs....cause I think if you can scaple out cortexes you really start to impact the list.
Now I think that list has some challenges if some of opponents lists is anti-cloud/shooting. You DON"T have a great obvious answer to incorp and I think that is a real pisser in theme design. But I tthink it should work.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jun 8, 2018 14:17:11 GMT
Could you do either Zerkova1 Jaws or WGK instead? Both with an emphasis on jacks. As you say clouds and feat to stop them getting in and to let you get the alpha. Just thinking then you can take A&H&V or a couple jacks on forge seers for the incorporeal issue. Would possibly let you create a list for dealing with Cryx as a whole, avoiding list chicken. Time to go write another list... Just when I think my pairing is sorted  Cheers, Dave |
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Post by auraco on Jun 8, 2018 14:27:39 GMT
Zerkova jaws might be a solid drop here, or hark kodiak cloud wall. Tramples are find and dandy, but they do lose their intials, which the list relies heavily upon. My only experience was with LEGOS, and he struggled to dent the list even with charges/initials. I think this is a terrible idea. Sure you'll buy yourself a turn on Zerkova's feat turn, but it doesn't help with the scenario set up when you bring a spd 4 jack list with no speed buff against a list that is know for it's insane scenario pressure. That and on non feat turn even with clouds with mobility the slayers outthreat your jacks simply by walking. I see absolutely no way Zerkova1 Jaws can deal with any of this. |
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474 
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Post by chuggyg on Jun 8, 2018 14:57:34 GMT
Wolves of Winter (greylord version) plays pretty well into the gaspy3 spam. Do you have an exact list in mind? I fail to see how short range unboosted pow 12 that feed Gaspy3's feat would work against 9 heavy jacks. Sure it ignores carapace and unyeilding, but still pow 12 against arm 17 will take a long time to eat through 28 boxes jacks. If you want to go full counter-list, this would chew through it pretty damn quickly, I think. No idea if it would have value outside the matchup, though... conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0K767q7q8s8h8h9ud0d18a8a8a8M8IKhador Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Wolves of Winter [Vladimir 1] Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Prince [+28] - Devastator [14] - Devastator [14] Fenris [9] Koldun Lord [0(4)] Koldun Lord [0(4)] Ragman [4] Greylord Outriders (min) [12] Greylord Outriders (max) [20] Greylord Ternion [7] Greylord Ternion [7] Greylord Ternion [7] Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8] - Koldun Kapitan Valachev [0(4)] I would probably even suggest dropping a ternion and making the second outriders a max. Under S+P your sprays are doing an average of 3.5 damage each to a slayer (with a 52% chance of rolling a 9 or above to deal 4-8 damage). With vlad's feat, you can run the jacks 16" to bulldoze packs of the slayers together to hose them down. The outriders get to poke as much as they want: slayers threat 12" and outrider repo to 13" away. |
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Jun 8, 2018 15:03:07 GMT
As for scenario, it gets much easier if you go first. Going second, I think you'd have to swing hard for one side and clear out as many jacks as possible to let yourself score. A single outrider can be run pretty much anywhere to contest when needed.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 8, 2018 15:16:24 GMT
Zerkova jaws might be a solid drop here, or hark kodiak cloud wall. Tramples are find and dandy, but they do lose their intials, which the list relies heavily upon. My only experience was with LEGOS, and he struggled to dent the list even with charges/initials. I think this is a terrible idea. Sure you'll buy yourself a turn on Zerkova's feat turn, but it doesn't help with the scenario set up when you bring a spd 4 jack list with no speed buff against a list that is know for it's insane scenario pressure. That and on non feat turn even with clouds with mobility the slayers outthreat your jacks simply by walking. I see absolutely no way Zerkova1 Jaws can deal with any of this. Why I suggest fangs. I guess you could get decent spot removal on incorp SOLOS with Z1. Bring Rienholdt for reload or destealth. You can shoot out with the rod (and leverage possibly the arc node) one and then hex blast another. Of course no sylss then and that is a hard pill. But that still means no real answer for Wraith Engine. Maybe she gets Ruin2 (that would be so cool) for xmas ;-) |
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jun 8, 2018 15:37:47 GMT
Has anyone tried Zerkova1 into Gaspy3? What you can't see you can't charge. The feat also helps reduce the threat range to a manageable 7 inch waddle and wack. Probably best Fangs....cause I think if you can scaple out cortexes you really start to impact the list. Now I think that list has some challenges if some of opponents lists is anti-cloud/shooting. You DON"T have a great obvious answer to incorp and I think that is a real pisser in theme design. But I tthink it should work. You mean a 9" "waddle and wack"? Slayers are base speed 6. Mobility makes them speed 8. They have 1" melee range. They walk 8", swing to 9". |
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Post by sand20go on Jun 8, 2018 15:44:05 GMT
Has anyone tried Zerkova1 into Gaspy3? What you can't see you can't charge. The feat also helps reduce the threat range to a manageable 7 inch waddle and wack. Probably best Fangs....cause I think if you can scaple out cortexes you really start to impact the list. Now I think that list has some challenges if some of opponents lists is anti-cloud/shooting. You DON"T have a great obvious answer to incorp and I think that is a real pisser in theme design. But I tthink it should work. You mean a 9" "waddle and wack"? Slayers are base speed 6. Mobility makes them speed 8. They have 1" melee range. They walk 8", swing to 9". Yes. Brain farted on mobility before that second cup of coffee. That still is 2 inches less than the IFP's base charge range. |
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jun 8, 2018 15:53:47 GMT
You mean a 9" "waddle and wack"? Slayers are base speed 6. Mobility makes them speed 8. They have 1" melee range. They walk 8", swing to 9". Yes. Brain farted on mobility before that second cup of coffee. That still is 2 inches less than the IFP's base charge range. Yes, and POW13 charges will do work against ARM19. The question, I think, becomes how much work they can do and how fast. Because Zerkova does literally nothing to increase their output (besides maybe removing Ashen Veil with a Hex Blast), and it takes Five or Six IFP hitting 6's or 8's on a charge to kill a Slayer, and Slayers only need 5's to hit IFP and 5's to kill with Trample damage rolls (less if the unit in question is affected by Calamity). I just think that the list would do better with a different caster at the helm. |
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Post by sand20go on Jun 8, 2018 16:50:59 GMT
But you are forgetting precision strike (which they all should have with the Kovnik bubble _AND_ critical knockdown (which is more of a nice if it happens rather than need to). On average 2-3 IFPs to scaple out a cortex. Also figure that in any Fangs list worth its salt we are looking at Rags in there someplace which means you only really need 2. You got in most fangs list at least 3 weaponmasters....and often flanking Bears. It isn't inconceviable that Zerkova could get off 1-2 clouds placed to make the IFP Def 14. Finally, while somewhat corner case you may have ghostwalk up on either the IFP or the Dragons which can be useful in allowing IFP to dig deep or Dragons to leverage side step to really pin a slayer down for the second turn. And counter charge. Lots and lots of weaponmaster countercharging - WITH reach so you can stay out of trample/buy range.
And a "biggish" problem for Slayer spam is that it is hard to win if you just feed a few things in - as Zerkova can (try) to neutralize what came in and then cloud wall again so that the effectiveness and threat range of wave 2 is again disadvantaged.
Moreover, - and I think that is the biggest problem for Gaspy - is that the list CAN lack shooting. So I can keep those IFP pretty bunched up and not worry about them getting shot off the board on the approach. Hell, I can RUN THEM and not worry about Shield Wall that much so I don't give up a ton on scenario - or at least as much as I might.
Finally, Z is a compromise so we are not just building a list to counter ONE bad thing. If that is all we had to do I would run Butcher 1 with Fangs into Gaspy and laugh as ONE IFP blew up cortexes....and it is scray to think how much work Sofya and the Bears are doing. But they would get really hurt on the approach under B1.....so we build a list that has game into other things.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Jun 8, 2018 16:59:59 GMT
The real answer to gaspy3 slayer spam is this: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0f79kWkW7R7R7R7R7S7S7S7T7S7T7S7TKhador Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand [Irusk 2] Supreme Kommandant Irusk [+27] - Juggernaut [13] - Juggernaut [13] Winter Guard Infantry (min) [6] Winter Guard Infantry (min) [6] Winter Guard Infantry (min) [6] Winter Guard Infantry (min) [6] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] He can't trample if he has nowhere to put his bases... |
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Post by thirdorbital on Jun 8, 2018 18:24:58 GMT
The real answer to gaspy3 slayer spam is this: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0f79kWkW7R7R7R7R7S7S7S7T7S7T7S7TKhador Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand [Irusk 2] Supreme Kommandant Irusk [+27] - Juggernaut [13] - Juggernaut [13] Winter Guard Infantry (min) [6] Winter Guard Infantry (min) [6] Winter Guard Infantry (min) [6] Winter Guard Infantry (min) [6] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] He can't trample if he has nowhere to put his bases... Lmao I think my deathclock had a heart attack just looking at this. |
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