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Post by sand20go on May 31, 2018 14:54:04 GMT
In the spirit of the podcast I previously pumped (where advanced Khador doesn't rely on tricks but our innate knowledge of the other guy's list and using positioning and tactics rather than tricks) I got to thinking - What about positing up top tier'ish lists and then having people say "Well with that in a pair i would drop This (aka, you don't get to net build against it but rather think about your list). If this is of interest I (or others) can try to post up every week.
I think thinking it through COULD make us better players. And might be fun when we are wasting time on the internet ;-)
So remember - (if you want to play along). Take a look at the post. Then respond putting up your list in a 2 list pairing and how you would approach dealing with these A tier lists. I will try to add in some of what the enemy list does but am not going to try to be completely comprehensive.
Week 1 - Anamag and Warmongers (Or "they hit how hard??!!)
So the new tasty in my meta (and I saw it on twitch last night)
[Anamag 1] Anamag the Doom Feaster [+27]
- Blightbringer [32]
- Ammok the Truthbearer [4]
Spell Martyr [1]
Warmonger War Chief [5]
Blighted Ogrun Rotwings (min) [7]
Blighted Ogrun Warmongers (max) [13]
- Gorag Rotteneye [0(6)]
Blighted Ogrun Warspears (max) [15]
- Warspear Chieftan [5]
Blighted Ogrun Warspears (max) [15]
- Warspear Chieftan [5]
Hellmouth [0(6)]
Hellmouth [0(6)]
The key here is how a variety of spells, feats and back of the card abilities stack to turn the Orgrun into extremely hard hitting medium infantry. For those that haven't seen it, we have feat (-2 dark shroud), blight bringer's blighted Dragon breath (+2 Strength both within 6 and more importantly while touching the 5 inch pie plate it will be shooting) and then "Fury's Strength" +2 Strength. Ana also has on her card the ability to once a turn cast a spell for free if a Ogrun kills something in her control (14) so it is very possible for her to get Fury's strength onto several units/models on the feat turn. For those scoring at home, this combo can turn the spears up to POW 19 assaulting troops...and with Carnage and the Warchief that is at RAT/MAT 8/9. If the mongers charge they can be up to MAT 11....and if need be with the blight bringer ridiculously at MAT 13 (6+2 for carnage+1 for Chief+2 for Def Debuff from BB and +2 for Powerful charge)
On the approach is it likely that Warmongers (who will likely be leading the way because of the +2 speed they can get once a game) will be at ARM 18 with Anamag's upkeep against Range and ARM 20 (unyielding) against melee. Warspears have Set Defense getting them up to Def 14.
Just to irritate you more hey have vengenance and access to pathfinder when charging. Warmongers have bersker. Everything has tough and then Ammok (caster attachment) provides a 10 inch rise bubble (along with helping Ana by extending the RNG of her spells by 2 inches) And last (but probably not least) they have Blooddrinker, which lets them heal d3 when they kill a living model.
The Rotwings and Hellmouths are there to (in order of import), block charge lanes and contest while the Ogrun waddle up the field (the list does NOT have great access to speed buffs though it does get +2 inches on deployment)
The list is all about closing and then obliterating you in the attrition game. It is a great match up for you to think about your lists against.
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Post by jonnyboy on May 31, 2018 15:02:23 GMT
Like the idea! I will put some thought into this tonight. I would like to mention that the warspears have prey and will be able to get to P+S 21 in the dream condition.
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 31, 2018 15:14:50 GMT
Does just shooting them work? Because I think it works. If V1 rockets can remove arm 20-21 heavy per turn it sure can remove an ogrun unit per turn. I also found Devastators are very good against big melee infantry. Sure, they do their cool bazillion of damage, but at end of the day Devastator usually survives on scraps (big dudes being hard to fit around single big base helps) and blows up everything with autohitting pow 18. B3 is also good against these lists. He can munch units that rely on tough all day. tl;dr I'd drop a V1 or B3 wgk list here.
Also I disagree with "where advanced Khador doesn't rely on tricks but our innate knowledge of the other guy's list and using positioning and tactics rather than tricks" thing, but I haven't fully listened to that podcast yet to provide a counter argument.
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Post by kovnikninehouse on May 31, 2018 15:24:41 GMT
So with the paring I am thinking of running which is
Strakhov2 in Armoured Korps with double Shocktroopers as a brick list
And
Irusk2 Winterguard Kommand with Victor and Ayana/Holt with Valachev as a gun line
I would choose Irusk2 and try to shoot them off the table while being safe from his shooting.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on May 31, 2018 15:34:58 GMT
I played almost this exact matchup tuesday with my Morvahna2 in circle and won... but this is a khador sub!! I'd definitely drop my OW2 list here... conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0KhzkSkW8shFkZhFkZ8h8h9u8a8a8a8M8IKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Wolves of Winter [Old Witch 2] Zevanna Agha, The Fate Keeper [+27] - Decimator [15] - Juggernaut [13] Fenris [9] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] - Rager [10] Greylord Forge Seer [4] - Rager [10] Koldun Lord [4] Koldun Lord [4] Ragman [4] Greylord Ternion [7] Greylord Ternion [7] Greylord Ternion [7] Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8] - Koldun Kapitan Valachev [0(4)] ---- Generally speaking, I have more than enough tools to totally shut down their ranged game: windstorm + koldun lords mean I can completely turn off the warspears throws, and reducing the blightbringer by 5" bring its gun within my 10" charge range on the warjacks. Blind from OW should be able to turn off the warspears. The gameplan would pretty much end up as 'stop him from attacking'. The blightbringer will have a hard time getting his shot where he wants it: I control deviations and the only direct targets I'm going to give him are the occasional ternion. For chewing through the boxes, I have a number of arm debuffs, and the ternion are both accurate and ignore unyielding. There's also Fenris and my warjacks. Rotwings will die very, very quickly to the ternion. The only thing I'm really worried about is the spell martyr: if he snipes out a koldun lord with a spell I could be in a fair bit of trouble. The hellmouths should die fairly quickly to the decimator/rager guns, fenris, and various arm debuffs. If I miss a kill and get a jack eaten its not the end of the world, but it would still suck!
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Post by auraco on May 31, 2018 15:54:12 GMT
Does just shooting them work? Because I think it works. If V1 rockets can remove arm 20-21 heavy per turn it sure can remove an ogrun unit per turn. B3 is also good against these lists. He can munch units that rely on tough all day. tl;dr I'd drop a V1 or B3 wgk list here.
This pretty much. I'm pretty sure Vlad1 rockets can just shoot his way out of that match up. B3 in WGK is in his element against melee army with predictable threat range. Sure they will kill your jacks, but what killed your jack is at the mercy of butcher and he's not that hard to keep safe if you play conservative. You B3 in WGK also brings a faire number of guns so he can start doing work before you even have to commit your jacks.
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Post by Netherby on May 31, 2018 16:08:13 GMT
OW1 WGK.
That list can't advance into her feat, so at least two turns of shooting. Finish what's left of the infantry with a Gun Carriage charge and Scrappy.
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Post by sand20go on May 31, 2018 16:12:19 GMT
San's response (as a guide/what is inside my very small mind) So my 2 list pairing for the summer is likely Sorscha3 and Vlad1. Seeing this gets vlad (but S3 CAN play into it - if she can successfully throw around Winter's wrath) conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0f76kTkU8t8M8I8e7S7T7W7S7T7W7Y7WKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand [Vladimir 1] Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Prince [+28] - Marauder [11] - Spriggan [17] Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4] Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8] - Koldun Kapitan Valachev [4] Widowmaker Scouts [8] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] So in this match up your rockets are, by far, the most important aspect of the army. You MUST have 2 (and ideally 3) turns of mass rocket fire to help deal with the 19 ogrun. If they do not do work, get killed by the Blight bringer you are in deep deep do do. A2) In all likelihood we are going to see the Warmongers in the lead. The Spears can "only" run 10 and engage 12. So they just are not that great for the jam. The Warmongers, however, can mini-feat and thus run 14 engaging 16. So that is what we have to assume that they are going to do. We have to think about their deployment and first turn movement to ensure that we have a minimum of 6 rockets that can cover the killing zone. This is going to be dictated upon deployment. B) Thus what I want to do on the turn they are first in range is the following. First, as always, is vlad going and casting S&P. I also am going to cast WindWall. Allocate one to the Spriggan. I don't THINK it is crticial but I don't want Vlad dying to random shooting or spears that I don't anticipate. I also MIGHT be able to protect a rocket or 2. I want Ayana & Hoylt to kiss the unit (max range) that is the most exposed and which I will focus on. Holt likely tries (average dice) to take out one of the Mongers. Again, max range. HOWEVER, if there is a danger that rockets are going to get jammed by either tenticals or rotwings his shots probably need to go there. Next Joe. Write it on big letters. Joe always activates early. Ideally shoot rotwings. I think he can be a bit exposed - both because of sac pawn but also because Ana's feat give grevious wounds so tough isn't saving the WG. Next I use 3 to 6 rockets to start whittling down ONE unit. If we have a "tough roll" hold off. Remember with Vengance ONE unit. Never give him a second if you can at all help it. Most WGI will, importantly, REPO UP while the rockets will repo BACK. We are going to get jammed/atttacked next turn. We want scenario presence as best we can get it _AND_ to put bodies between the ogrun and the rockets (see a theme) Again....save those rockets. Rifles do CMA's into any knocked down guys and shoot off the rotwings. It is possible they could make a dent in a second unit that doesn't have the upkeep on it but it is important that you have enough attacks (7 or more plus rockets) to actually do enough work against the unit to justify giving them vengance. If in doubt, shoot at Hellmouth. Next Spriggan We didn't shoot at knocked down guys because we SHOULD be able to put in a shot (or 2) into knocked down guys. We allocated 1 focus (if required) to allow Spriggan to trample, shoot, and boost to ensure that he kills an Ogrun who toughed. If things have gone well we have removed a unit of Ogrun and, on the retaliation, lost minimal Rockets. On the following turn we can Now continue the same process of killing off ONE unit. Here again we see the value of being Khador good. Under S&P a fully loaded Maurader has an 84% chance of killing the BB under Vlad's feat. So we want to position the Spriggan in a way (and only commit him) if the BB has to come in on the Spriggan - and position the Maurader so that, under feat, it is able to cover 2 inches beyond the spriggan. IN the end this looks good for Khador. Broken record but our rockets are key. For legion, it is critical that they utilize terrain on the approach and thus for Khador DENYING them that terrain is very valuable. A pro-tip - remember that they get pathfinder just ONCE on the Warmongers....and then need to CHARGE with the SPEARS. SO if you can put them on the side of the board with terrain on near their "back half" that is not bad at all for you - it slows them down, forces out a very suboptimal use of feat or just reduces the Spears movement by 2 inches (5+3 vs. 5 x2). OK. that is all from me for this week of "Beat the List".
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 31, 2018 17:07:26 GMT
Honestly pure melee infantry has no good options againt wg infantry. Wg can shoot and repo back leaving a few dudes to contest and rockets at 17" from ogruns. If melee runs to engage you just spray them.
Melee needs a feat to close distance. And not just clouds or Stealth because Spriggan. It needs to be arm buff like Strakhov2 or Stryker.
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Post by macdaddy on May 31, 2018 17:07:29 GMT
I think a much more scary list will involve chosen, because it is going to be very durable to shooting and still hit like a freight train.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on May 31, 2018 17:47:22 GMT
The really scary list is actually this shitpile: conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0-gNkE28kPb6kLb6b6b8csfTfTLegion Army - 71 / 75 points [Theme] Primal Terrors [Fyanna 2] Fyanna, Torment of Everblight [+28] - Blightbringer [32] - Harrier [3] Warmonger War Chief [5] Blighted Ogrun Warmongers (max) [13] - Gorag Rotteneye [0(6)] Blighted Ogrun Warmongers (max) [13] Blighted Ogrun Warmongers (max) [13] Blighted Ogrun Warspears (max) [15] - Warspear Chieftan [5] Hellmouth [0(6)] Hellmouth [0(6)] Everything being def 15 and dodge (and the hellmouths being def 13) is a nightmare to get through. I can't remember what the last 4 points are.
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Post by sand20go on May 31, 2018 18:07:06 GMT
I think a much more scary list will involve chosen, because it is going to be very durable to shooting and still hit like a freight train. As I understand it the rules for the chosen are still not out yet (right?) cause they are not in warroom, yes. I completely agree that with Rapid healing you are going to need to put a TON of shots into them.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on May 31, 2018 19:59:32 GMT
I think a much more scary list will involve chosen, because it is going to be very durable to shooting and still hit like a freight train. As I understand it the rules for the chosen are still not out yet (right?) cause they are not in warroom, yes. I completely agree that with Rapid healing you are going to need to put a TON of shots into them. Or Grievous Wounds or Take-down. Who has that in Khador? Alten Ashley has ranged Grievous. Widowmakers, Widwomaker Marksmen, and Kell Bailoch are great finishers because they ignore tough (but not initiators because dealing one to three autopoints isn't helpful when the target immediately heals d3 points).
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Post by sand20go on May 31, 2018 20:27:09 GMT
As I understand it the rules for the chosen are still not out yet (right?) cause they are not in warroom, yes. I completely agree that with Rapid healing you are going to need to put a TON of shots into them. Or Grievous Wounds or Take-down. Who has that in Khador? Alten Ashley has ranged Grievous. Widowmakers, Widwomaker Marksmen, and Kell Bailoch are great finishers because they ignore tough (but not initiators because dealing one to three autopoints isn't helpful when the target immediately heals d3 points). We have VERY limited access to take down/GW. I believe right now A) Strike Tanker as Grevious (which would be a very bad drop, I think, into this theme of legions unless built around, for example, OW1 and Bombers) B) Butcher3 has take down via upkeep spell C) And then some mercs have it as well (Alton, Hutchuck, etc.).
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Post by auraco on May 31, 2018 21:24:37 GMT
Assault kommandoes have anti healing and anti tough effect but they are clearly not worth it with their lack of hitting power and lack of theme synergy. So yeah Strike tankers, butcher3 and merc are the main options for khador.
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