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Post by smoothcriminal on May 31, 2018 23:34:04 GMT
Chosen will be tricky because you can't just mass pow 12 them to death, "healing on hit" ability is a pain. You'll need to shoot big CRAs and boosted shots and hope they don't tough it away. So much lists in meta abuse tough now in various ways that it may be worth it to have a dedicated widowmakers+elims wgk list against them. The really scary list is actually this shitpile: conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0-gNkE28kPb6kLb6b6b8csfTfTLegion Army - 71 / 75 points [Theme] Primal Terrors [Fyanna 2] Fyanna, Torment of Everblight [+28] - Blightbringer [32] - Harrier [3] Warmonger War Chief [5] Blighted Ogrun Warmongers (max) [13] - Gorag Rotteneye [0(6)] Blighted Ogrun Warmongers (max) [13] Blighted Ogrun Warmongers (max) [13] Blighted Ogrun Warspears (max) [15] - Warspear Chieftan [5] Hellmouth [0(6)] Hellmouth [0(6)] Everything being def 15 and dodge (and the hellmouths being def 13) is a nightmare to get through. I can't remember what the last 4 points are. Def 15 isn't anything s&p and CRAs can't fix.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on May 31, 2018 23:54:02 GMT
You're going to have attack volume issues if you need to CRA everything. Standard WGI are also out-threated by the gorag warmongers and the warspears. The vlad1 list is also lacking a good way to kill the hellmouths
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Post by chickenslayer on Jun 1, 2018 4:54:26 GMT
If you have Aiyana & Holt in your list, Vlad 1 can kill hellmouths. It's pretty much an exercise in general in chucking rocks at a hole in the ground but when you can take away the Blight Bringer aura effect by landing a Kiss then you go a long way to evening that matchup up. Even if the Hellmouth itself is hiding behind terrain, the tentacles frequently are not and can be cursed by Aiyana. The Maw itself can be pinged turn after turn by Gun Carriages or Mortars if they've got nothing better to do as well.
In fact, generally speaking Vlad 1 Winter Guard Kommand with at least 1 Fun Carriage, Aiyana & Holt, a Marauder and other good stuff has a very good time into Ogryn lists, including that Fiyana one (the last 4 points are probably the Ogryn Kriel Stone guy with Rise) or Anamag. None of the Ogryn are steady so models like Field Guns, rams from the Fun Carriage and Marauders are all very effective. The Fun Carriage cannot be pulled by Hellmouths and in a lot of these lists spamming Warmongers they don't actually have Pathfinder apart from Gorag's unit, so the Crater is also quite relevant. Finally you can actually kill the Blightbringer itself between the odd Mortar shot tossed its way and a Vlad Feat'd Marauder delivering the coup de grace.
For an alternative, Butcher 3 has a lot of game, especially if the opponent is playing Thagrosh 1, since he can act as a sweeper and a recovery mechanism in case you get The Shit Mauled out of you unexpectedly. An Armoured Corps build heavy on Demo Corps will do work here. Irusk 2 similarly is good for this with double Strike Tankers since he can swap Fire For Effect between them to deal with Chosen super efficiently as well as spam Shocktroopers. Or he can take a Siege Chariot, which might be one of the best means of dealing with any medium based infantry in the game, especially since Ogryn aren't immune to KD so you can get around all their Tough and stuff even with Rise (plus the Collateral is POW 20 which is just crazy). Again, in Armoured Corps, though you could entertain notion of playing one of the more spammy builds and hoping that Tough is enough to really deal with Berserk.
In general, Ogryn are super annoying to kill in melee and generally speaking will win most melee fights between Beserk, huge accuracy and huge damage, plus Unyielding and stuff like Thags 1's Aura. This in addition to the fact that when you get engaged in melee their Hellmouths can start breaking apart formations and just play merry havoc on you. But they are vulnerable to just getting rocketed in the face over and over, no matter how hopeless or annoying it can feel.
Just assume that, baring something like Shocktroopers with a buff or a couple of heavies, whatever you put into their threat range is dead meat and just focus on Not letting that a happen so much. Disciple, target priority, burning down 1 unit at a time and not randomly throwing away models are all vital to winning this matchup. Without Vengence or Hellmouths there's no real threat extenders for the Ogryn, and certainly none to my knowledge on their best Primal Terrors casters. Often going second is the best thing to do because it denies prime Hellmouth locations, the Ogryn themselves are not really fast enough to exploit this opportunity to Turbo Jam and can give you more turns of shooting against them with the appropriate list.
To round this all out, Honestly neither Fiyana or Anamag are as good as Thagrosh 1 or Kallus 1 at running this list. Fiyana & Anamag have slightly better anti-shooting toolboxes to an extent but Thugrosh and Kallus both take an already strong list and just add a bit of Recursion spice to the mix to make it even more stupid, in addition to their super strong support kits.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 1, 2018 12:39:34 GMT
I would much rather face that list with Thagrosh or Kallus than Fyanna. Thagrosh's feat doesn't work on the Blightbringer, so they would bring other things and thus top out at a whopping P15. Kallus' main draw is Dark Guidance, which is a waste when the dudes can hit MAT11 anyway. Also, the low model count means he doesn't get many incubi.
In those cases I'd run ARM heavy, jacks or MoW. They've not got the model count to really jam you, and they've not got the damage to really crush you.
As to the original list, I would consider (perhaps foolishly) playing any caster with an ARM boost in Armoured Corps, particularly if they have some control aspects too. They start at D-10 on Iron Fleshed Shocktroopers, and need to throw their entire arsenal, including a feat, at making that D-4.
I reckon S3 might have game there. She can freeze a unit for control, and can block charges with the clouds, has Iron Flesh, and can absolutely delete the Blightbringer thanks to flank.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 1, 2018 14:21:52 GMT
Remember - I hoped this thread would NOT be about netlisting the counter. It is thinking about YOUR 2 list pair (or 3 if for some reason that is your meta) and how you tactically/strategically play into it.
We can ALL Net list something that usually works. My Vlad list is not ideal. But it is probably better than my S3 choice (the strategy around list choices), I want to choose a side that allows me to shoot in the mid board but might have terrain to clog him on his near side (strategy of side choice) and the tactics has to be to minimize the vengeance moves and to ensure that the rockets get two and ideally three rounds of shooting because your infantry HAS to deal with the ogrun because you don't want to trade down your jacks and end up with the blightbringer unthreatened.
Or it is at least these sorts of discussions I wanted to foster with this sort of thread.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 1, 2018 15:38:45 GMT
Well these sorts of lists is one of the big reasons I always want to have a ranged list in my pair. I don't think any of our melee lists are positioned well against it.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Jun 6, 2018 20:02:33 GMT
I think IFP will chew through the list in the OP. POW13s will kill them and you have an almost 2-1 advantage on bodies. Berserk is a bit of a worry.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 6, 2018 22:49:25 GMT
I think IFP will chew through the list in the OP. POW13s will kill them and you have an almost 2-1 advantage on bodies. Berserk is a bit of a worry. With assault (and the blightbringers pieplate hitting the shield walled IFP) you are looking at effective RAT 7+ at POW 15+ on the assualt which should be at least a threat of 16 or more.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jun 7, 2018 4:41:00 GMT
I think IFP will chew through the list in the OP. POW13s will kill them and you have an almost 2-1 advantage on bodies. Berserk is a bit of a worry. With assault (and the blightbringers pieplate hitting the shield walled IFP) you are looking at effective RAT 7+ at POW 15+ on the assualt which should be at least a threat of 16 or more. Yeah but the warspears kill 5 at most. Leaving the remainder of the Unit to charge up and kill them.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jun 7, 2018 9:07:31 GMT
OW1 WGK. That list can't advance into her feat, so at least two turns of shooting. Finish what's left of the infantry with a Gun Carriage charge and Scrappy. Funnily enough, I was going to say the exact same thing! My current pairing is Old Witch1 in Winter Guard Kommand and Strakhov1 in Jaws of the Wolf. Won't put exact lists up just now because they're still being adjusted. Though I'll hopefully post a battle report with my OW1 list shortly. Basically, using Sorscha0 (hoping she stays as is) Scrapjack bullies hellmouths back, plus the feat makes life difficult for them. Murder of Crows helps block off assault line of sight lanes for the ogrun, letting the winter guard infantry and jacks get up the board safer. The heavies in the list provide some boostable shooting through a destroyer and includes a couple long threat juggernauts (who can hide behind forests and charge out from there) to keep the blightbringer honest. Iron Flesh stops the infantry getting decimated too badly by the blightbringer gun (unless it's got a continuous effect on it?) and there's a few knockdown effects to get round tough and all that fun stuff. Finally, the high MAT and POW of the ogrun is generally wasted on the winter guard and Old Witch1 packs multiple tricks for keeping the jacks relatively safe from them until they're ready to commit. I don't think there's a particular advantage for me in the match up, but equally I think OW1 brings tools to balance it. Cheers, Dave P.S. Sand, I think this is a good idea! Keep it up!
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 7, 2018 13:03:54 GMT
Yeah but the warspears kill 5 at most. Leaving the remainder of the Unit to charge up and kill them. They can kill up to 10 if they assault.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Jun 7, 2018 14:02:01 GMT
Yeah but the warspears kill 5 at most. Leaving the remainder of the Unit to charge up and kill them. They can kill up to 10 if they assault. The IFP outthreat the warspears' actual charge range
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 7, 2018 17:19:37 GMT
The key here is how a variety of spells, feats and back of the card abilities stack to turn the Orgrun into extremely hard hitting medium infantry. For those that haven't seen it, we have feat (-2 dark shroud), blight bringer's blighted Dragon breath (+2 Strength both within 6 and more importantly while touching the 5 inch pie plate it will be shooting) and then "Fury's Strength" +2 Strength. Ana also has on her card the ability to once a turn cast a spell for free if a Ogrun kills something in her control (14) so it is very possible for her to get Fury's strength onto several units/models on the feat turn. For those scoring at home, this combo can turn the spears up to POW 19 assaulting troops...and with Carnage and the Warchief that is at RAT/MAT 8/9. If the mongers charge they can be up to MAT 11....and if need be with the blight bringer ridiculously at MAT 13 (6+2 for carnage+1 for Chief+2 for Def Debuff from BB and +2 for Powerful charge) On the approach is it likely that Warmongers (who will likely be leading the way because of the +2 speed they can get once a game) will be at ARM 18 with Anamag's upkeep against Range and ARM 20 (unyielding) against melee. Warspears have Set Defense getting them up to Def 14. Forgive me I've not yet read through everything but the math is a just a tiny bit off. I'd like to correct them if you don't mind.
Warspears With Ua gain Prey so base Pow 13 13 + 2 (prey) + 2 (Spell) +2 (BB) +2 (feat DS) = Pow 21 [max]
Accuracy max is a little off too. Blightbringer can only pick 1 aura at a time. So if he is handing out the STR/ARM buff he cannot also hand out the -2 Def debuff in the same round. But you can take Gorag (which the list did) for the paralyzing gaze. The cap is still mind blowing. You can also have a Rotwing B2B for sitting vulture for another -1. So cap is Mat 14. It's beyond reason at that point.
I would like to provide some more valuable info but I must read everything else first.
[edit] aaaand Johny mention the pow 21 already. my bad.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 7, 2018 19:41:38 GMT
Few things people have suggested.
OW1 - Against the unboosted Pow 14 feat at least one unit of Ogrun will be Armor 20 thanks to the BB aura and Ana's upkeep "Bond of Grissel and Bone". Nothing else I can see from her kit that terribly threatens Ogrun.
OW2 - Windsotrm + Vexing Alignment. Warpears should be assaulting their target so the -5RNG will not affect them when they are 2" or less from their target. It does hamper the Blighbringer a little bit but it can still charge and it hands out the buff within 6"
Chickenslayer - The warspear UA grants relentless charge. Warmonger UA give no quarter gives pathfinder. Chosen have pathfinder native. Rotwings have flying. So the crater will not pose much problems.
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Post by chickenslayer on Jun 8, 2018 0:51:04 GMT
Chickenslayer - The warspear UA grants relentless charge. Warmonger UA give no quarter gives pathfinder. Chosen have pathfinder native. Rotwings have flying. So the crater will not pose much problems. Crater is a problem for Vengeance triggers when a Victor applies it, just cause of how far away that thing shoots. Coupled with some suitable long ranged guns or simply killing the Ogryn that are in the front you can help control how many of them get into combat and start meat-blendering your guys, even if they get pathfinder on charges. Plus there are lists taking to spamming Warmongers in bulk because of how cheap they are for their damage. Those units are prime targets to Crater. But yea, you shoot at something like a Chosen or a clump of guys and the shot is going to be Fire. Random aside, but Vlad 1 Rockets is in my list pair in part because of this theme force, is a competent list in its own right good into other matchups to and has the tools to beat this particular list.
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