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Post by Korianneder on Apr 10, 2017 1:58:45 GMT
I'm really excited about Kallus2, but I'm having a difficult time coming up with a list I really like for him. The current list I'm trying is:
Kallus2 - Oracles of Annihilation -Succubus - Free -Seraph -Angelius -Angelius -Naga -Carnivean -Nephilim Protector Forsaken - Free Shepherd Shepherd Spell Martyr Hex Hunters -Bayal - Free
I played it against Karchev - Jaws of the Wolf -Maruder -Marauder -Grolar -Grolar -Juggernaut -Juggernaut -Forge Seer - free -Forge Seer - free -Widowmaker Marksman Min Mechaniks - Officer - Free Kayazy Eliminators Kayazy Eliminators Widowmaker Scouts
Since it was the theme force I lost advanced deploy on the Hex Hunters. Kind of sucked, but I went first and between the succubus cloud, the cloud from fuel cache, and a burning forest that I was immune to from blazing path, I was able to get all of them prowled or hidden so they didn't get shot. My opponent conceded when it came down to Kallus2, the protector on 1 box, an angelius on 5 boxes, a full seraph and a few hex hunters vs Karchev and his mechaniks. I was really able to play a very hit and run game with overrun, overtake, and slipstream, by focusing an angelius on each side of the battlefield and darting back and forth slowly taking down the jacks.
However, I have nothing that really triggers his feat. All I was able to do with the feat was kill a widowmaker that had been lit on fire off a bounce from brand of fire and get a single free charge from an angelius that didn't need the extra three inches at all. Battle lust was decent on the hex hunters, particularly on Bayal. It just feels difficult to light things on fire for his feat. I could play him out of theme with a min unit of croak raiders, but he does nothing for croak raiders. Also if I play him out of theme I'd probably be taking Azrael with him which doesn't leave a lot of room for models to benefit from battle lust because of the increased number of points in his battlegroup.
So has anyone else made a good list for him, or does anyone else have some experience with Kallus2?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2017 4:27:57 GMT
yeah, you don't really have anything in the list for setting up for the feat. but it sounds like you didn't really need it in the game either. raeks are great for that if you want to stay in theme. his own spell is great for it, but rarely wants to spend the focus to get it off. i personally like him in ravens of war, as ambushing grots are a great battle lust target, raptors play to the hit and run theme, and striders are useful for jamming, and thereby lighting things on fire.
swordsmen are great out of theme, as is azrael. i have not tested croaks yet. i can't find a list i like a lot with them.
i like your list though, hit and run with the angels, hex hunters can hex bolt or shadow bind heavies that have crippled by the angel. he is a very versatile, options heavy caster. so i think a lot of it comes down to figuring out how you want to play him, and building the list towards that. and that means some of his kit will be used less often in games.
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Post by shroomvolcano on Apr 10, 2017 13:03:01 GMT
I've been using Blightblades as high def Battle Lust targets and Croaks to oil and light stuff on fire.
Usually feat turn is something like: Oil+Dart is a boosted POW 10 on a heavy, then Kallus casts BL and feats for another POW 12 (unboosted), knocking off just a couple boxes here, but more importantly stuff is on fire for looong charges. Blightblades do crazy damage with BL and, with up to 12 attacks on the unit, they can often cripple multiple heavies or focus down one. Finally a pair of Neph Soldiers can clean up relatively risk free from 13" out with low point investment and up to 4 attacks. I'll follow this up with a pair of heavies (Azrael's shots are incredible for whittling down heavy flankers, and Scytheans do lot of work against infantry and heavies alike, and can easily threaten Warlocks/casters) for additional ARM-cracking or clean up duty next turn.
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rivers
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 57
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Post by rivers on Apr 10, 2017 14:00:28 GMT
My preferred method to set stuff on fire for the feat is jamming Striders (Blades or Scouts are both fine really, I prefer Scouts as they can spread out more), with Incubi waiting to pop out. Slap on Blazing Path and your opponent will often run into situations where they whiff on a Strider and end their turn on fire, or kill a Strider and if its their last attack, get set on fire by the Incubus that pops out. Failing that, Raeks make wonderful feat enablers thanks to the field marshal. Manuever safely into a heavy you want to tag and charge with something that before then was way safe back.
For this reason and a few others I really don't like Kallus2 in theme right now, as none of them quite get the mix right. I usually like Typhon with him since he is ridiculous with Overrun (both triggering it and benefitting from it), hits stuff hard enough most of the time (since Kallus can't buff beast damage himself this is important), and is hardy enough with his DEF/ARM/Excessive Healing.
Ravens of War is probably the only theme I'd like him with I think, since he can bring good cheap infantry for Battle Lust, enough decent warbeasts that can make good use of Overrun, and get enough free points to feel like you're not gimping yourself.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 10, 2017 14:49:38 GMT
So I'm sort of torn on Kallus2. I can't decide on a serious list I want to play with him. But I definitely have something I want to try for fun. The Idea is to focus on infantry like his predecessor. So two min units of Warspears, a Blightbringer, and some way to set things on fire (Zuriel likely). The idea is that if I need overrun, the BB AoE is more than capable of popping an innocent warrior model. Battlelust + prey + aura = Pow 17 weaponmasters charging 13". That just seems fun. But it has minimal infantry clear (becoming less and less of an issue in my meta) and near nothing in terms of attrition. But that Alpha should be hilarious.
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rivers
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 57
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Post by rivers on Apr 10, 2017 15:26:18 GMT
I've wanted to try him with the Blight Bringer and infantry, but it feels like such a trap when Overrun is such a comparably flexible and amazing spell for the battlegroup. I think he could definitely do it I just have trouble finding a compelling reason to do so, especially when if you're going to bring a gargantuan, the Archangel is a much better pick in my opinion for him anyways thanks to its native high SPD and P+S. My very first Kallus2 game I got to have my AA a solid 34" up the board killing the enemy's Hyperion and it felt damn good (granted my dice went cold and I didn't actually kill the Hyperion and it cost me the game ultimately but that's not my necessarily my fault).
But, then again it's a for fun list so who cares anyways right? For me my for fun BB list is with double Raiders instead (mostly because POW17 weapon master feels like overkill and flight/spd 7 is just so superior in every way). Also don't forget that Prey no longer does +2" on your Prey target in Mk3, so they're actually only charging 11". They do THREAT 13" thanks to reach at least, so if you meant that, then my bad.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 10, 2017 15:55:41 GMT
Speed 5 + 3" charge + 2" reach + 3" feat was what I meant. That requires setting the target on fire but I think I can get at least 2 big targets on fire.
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rivers
BattleBox Champ
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Post by rivers on Apr 10, 2017 16:12:49 GMT
Yeah I was just making the distinction between threat vs charge since it is a minor difference and I have a bad habit of being pedantic. Back on the topic though I still can't think of a good reason to do Warspears in their current state with Kallus2 even in a goofy list, I'd just be too wary of them dying to guns on the way up as usual. Grotesques can at least hide in forests and Assassin CMD ranges.
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Post by Cheesebeard on Apr 10, 2017 17:22:52 GMT
Kallus2 strikes me as one of those Warlocks that would really enjoy a larger-sized game, because he has a lot of versatility in his kit, but to ensure that something (e.g., his feat, Overrun) will go off properly, you have to dedicate additional models/modules to make it happen. And our stuff is pretty damned expensive.
He can certainly amp up a unit's melee power. He can give beasts a pretty ridiculous threat extension. He can make his army immune to fire, and put out continuous fire. He can be a respectable threat in his own right, and has the makings of an active caster.
What he can't do is everything at once. And while he has a lot of tools, they're circumstantial rather than synergistic - what I mean by that is Battle Lust doesn't interact with Overrun, unless it's on him, or during his feat, and continuous fire/fire immunity doesn't really interact with the other pieces except helping in specific circumstances. Looking at it this way, you can see that him and his feat are the overlapping elements here, and while I wouldn't advise "building to the feat" or trying to turn him into a Voltron-style caster (stacking buff upon buff on him, alone), they're things that you also don't want to ignore when going for a competitive list.
This leads me to believe that his list building will involve a pretty clear understanding of what he will do in your pairing; it will be difficult to make him a generalist at 75 points, and although themes look really attractive with him, they limit him more than other casters in terms of versatility, because of the specific - but diverse - selection of things that he wants to bring. To use some of the emerging terminology, Kallus2 strikes me as a complex caster; I don't have time to delve into that right now (it's a complex topic - ha!...), but the gist of what I mean by that is I will be looking for subtle tactical synergies and strategic flexibility. A good example of this list complexity is using the Forsaken as a Battle Lust target once it's done its fury management duty, or using Overrun to allow Kallus2 to be a lot more aggressive and rely on himself or beasts to Overrun him into a more advantageous position.
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Post by Cheesebeard on Apr 10, 2017 19:34:22 GMT
Given that the Legion community has had some trouble figuring out Kallus2, and it got me thinking that he probably favors a complex treatment rather than trying to find raw efficiency (even though it looks like he has the tools for that, it really limits his kit's potential, imo). That said, I put a list together over lunch that focuses on a more complex design strategy, and wrote out my thoughts on it, below. Disclaimer: I typically field beast-heavy lists, and have yet to pilot this (as I literally just built it), so this is a bit heavy on theory-craft.
Kallus, Devastation of Everblight - WB: +28 - Seraph - PC: 14 - Angelius - PC: 17 - Naga Nightlurker - PC: 8 - Raek - PC: 8 The Forsaken - PC: 4 The Forsaken - PC: 4 Grotesque Assassin - PC: 0 Grotesque Assassin - PC: 0 Annyssa Ryvaal - PC: 8 Blighted Nyss Raptors - Leader & 4 Grunts: 18 Strider Blightblades - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Grotesque Raiders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 12 Fuel Cache - Steamroller Objective THEME: Ravens of War
The general idea of the list is to balance Kallus' interest in both infantry (40 pts for 2 free solos, up to 64 pts w/ solos) and beasts (47 pts), while maintaining his interest in pressuring assassination, triggering fire on his feat, extending threat ranges, and having some scenario game. Trying to manage threats against this list is... challenging.
Both the Blightblades and Raiders can ambush, and the Raptors and Annyssa can run 18" on turn one, with only the Forsaken and Naga being SPD 6, and everything else SPD 7 or 9. On top of being very fast and aggressive, the opponent will also lose AD (if they have any), further setting them back on board presence. Both assassins, Blightblades, Annyssa, and the Raiders have or can gain stealth, and although Legion can see thru this, immunity to fire across a whole army is strong in most Legion matchups. Everything is also relatively high DEF, with the exception of the Raiders' terrible statline. Speaking of Raiders, when they get Ambush, stealth, potentially +3" threat, Battle Lust, and native Gang, they can add some damage threat that would normally be assigned to beasts. Forsaken manage fast beasts, are terrifying with 5 fury and Battle Lust, and they can also manage jamming infantry or focus/fury heavy lists to some extent. Raptors are generally strong with Kallus2 because of their high base accuracy (Annyssa adds to this), ability to get ranged work done (esp. vs living), and giving them Battle Lust means MAT 6/7 with 3d6 to hit and 5d6 PS 10 at a 13-16" pathfinder threat; they also have impact attacks that benefit from Battle Lust. On top of all that, all the beasts can Overrun around, cav models can reposition (Kallus, Annyssa, Raptors), and the Assassins have sprint (and grievous wounds).
Beast-wise, the Seraph provides a DEF debuff, and slipstream to further extend threat ranges on a variety of models, on top of being a serpentine model against knockdown-heavy lists. The Angelius is the second serpentine model (of three) that can help shield Kallus against knockdown feats and the like, has an incredible threat range, and can be either a great assassination piece, a ranged threat, a poke in the eye for a hard target, or a scenario piece. The Naga solves for some of Kallus' issues with defensive buffs, is another serpentine model, and can play midrange game fairly well; putting its animus on Annyssa can be pretty deadly in some matchups (Stormlances). The Raek can flank hard (up to 24" from Kallus), and with Overrun and leap they can get into some unpredictable places, setting up for the feat (allowing ambushing models to charge up to 16" off the side of the table).
Some alternatives I could consider would be dropping the Angelius and Annyssa for 25 points, and picking up two Neraphs - pretty solid with Overrun, but not very hard-hitting... so maybe not with Kallus2. I could drop Annyssa for a Raek, giving a better beast flank in exchange for the strong Stormlance counter and Raptor +1 to hit, or for two Deathstalkers to up the anti-infantry game (although, I think it probably has enough anti-infantry tech, and even if tough spam could be an issue at least the Assassins have grievous and blightblades might get a few crits). Looking back, I could also add a unit of Grotesque Raiders/Banshees in place of the Blightblades, but it would diminish the versatility a bit, I'd have to cut an assassin to make room for them, and they wouldn't get ambush; it would, however, give me a better points setup for putting in 1 or 2 spell martyrs...
A big fault in the list is having no spell martyrs to sling spells around with, but at one point each it really effs the list design because you can only take 3 and there are 4 easy points to spare (because while two assassins are cool, they're not necessary – it just allows for more flexibility and tactical value in approach with the ambushing unit being able to flank both sides and gain stealth upon arrival). Finding room for spell martyrs is probably my #1 interest as I iterate on it; and I really miss having incubi given that I'm running 2 ambush units.
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Post by Korianneder on Apr 10, 2017 20:51:32 GMT
Thanks for all the advice guys. It definitely seems like I'm trying to take the most advantage of every little thing on his card, and that's what is giving me fits, especially at 75 points. I do like cheesebeard's list. Too bad I don't own grotesques or raptors yet though. They're on the list of purchases. I enjoy those really mobile, hit and run type lists Kallus2 definitely seems to support that strategy.
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Post by wwjonnyd on Apr 10, 2017 21:17:01 GMT
Kallus2 is definitely a pick your poison kind of caster. Pick one of the 2 or 3 strategies his card presents, and run with it. Can't do it all!
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landuin
Baby's First Wargame
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Post by landuin on Apr 13, 2017 10:52:26 GMT
I played Kallus2 almost exclusively at SmogCon (spent a grand time in the spell draft on XX Day where I used the twins instead, why XX? cause the whole weekend tends to blur after awhile). The list I was running was;
Kallus, Devastation of Everblight +28pts Succubus 4pts Seraph 14pts Typhon 24pts Azeral 21pts Naga Nightlurker 8pts
The Forsaken 4pts Blighted Nyss Shepherd 1pts Blighted Nyss Shepherd 1pts Spell Martyr 1pts Spell Martyr 1pts Blighted Nyss Raptors 18pts Hellmouth 6pts
I found that I was using Overrun as my main spell, often camping 1 with Excessive Healing on (I find this animus is amazing on Kallus2 and makes it exceptionally hard for me to not include Typhon in any list I make). Battle Lust typically went on the Raptors once per game in about 50% of the games I played, letting their impact hits and melee damage perform exceptionally well. Once it went on a fully loaded forsaken who did an exceptional amount of work as well. Now the feat was exceptionally interesting, using all three parts fairly evenly throughout the whole weekend. Either to clear infantry jam, extending my threat range (thank you Az) or to gain free charges for the extra damage (and the get around a no forcing zone once). I enjoyed the versatility that it gave in each game.
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Post by ComboSmiteNick on Apr 16, 2017 6:18:06 GMT
I played Kallus2 almost exclusively at SmogCon (spent a grand time in the spell draft on XX Day where I used the twins instead, why XX? cause the whole weekend tends to blur after awhile). The list I was running was; Kallus, Devastation of Everblight +28pts Succubus 4pts Seraph 14pts Typhon 24pts Azeral 21pts Naga Nightlurker 8pts The Forsaken 4pts Blighted Nyss Shepherd 1pts Blighted Nyss Shepherd 1pts Spell Martyr 1pts Spell Martyr 1pts Blighted Nyss Raptors 18pts Hellmouth 6pts I found that I was using Overrun as my main spell, often camping 1 with Excessive Healing on (I find this animus is amazing on Kallus2 and makes it exceptionally hard for me to not include Typhon in any list I make). Battle Lust typically went on the Raptors once per game in about 50% of the games I played, letting their impact hits and melee damage perform exceptionally well. Once it went on a fully loaded forsaken who did an exceptional amount of work as well. Now the feat was exceptionally interesting, using all three parts fairly evenly throughout the whole weekend. Either to clear infantry jam, extending my threat range (thank you Az) or to gain free charges for the extra damage (and the get around a no forcing zone once). I enjoyed the versatility that it gave in each game. I like this list a lot. Its probably the first one I've seen that tries to make use of Kallus' whole card. I've seen dedicated Overrun builds and dedicated Battle Lust builds and this one has a nice mix.
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Post by piedpiperwtf on Apr 16, 2017 14:40:59 GMT
Seems to me neraphs with attractor and sprint as well as proteus's drag and crawling chaos could be rather useful in setting things on fire.
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