bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
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Post by bluebeard on Jun 26, 2018 1:09:49 GMT
Sooo, speaking of casters...how about those changes to Ravyn?
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Post by mcdermott on Jun 26, 2018 3:32:03 GMT
Compared to other short range 10in guns they don’t really have a lot to offer. Their mele is not good enough to threaten jacks and compared to other similar shooting units they trade useful rules like pathfinder, ad, or other for +1 mat and a higher price tag. Not sure if they will settle at -3 but -2 is defiantly justified Do tell which ranged 10 man units have melee good enough to threaten jacks. Also +1 to 2 mat, +1 to 2 ranged pow + 2 to 4 arm, + 1-3 melee pow and that bonus to mat puts them into elite melee unit range. Currently 2 points cheaper than trencher long gunners + ca 1 point cheaper than trenchers +ca, the same price as idrians and errants Generally within 1 point of most other ranged 10 strong units, while being strictly better in melee. Edit: Trenchers, same range +1 pow same rat AKs , Same range +2 pow same rat Idrians Same range +1 pow +1 rat Errants Same range +2 pow same rat Steelheads Same range +1pow +1 rat High shields Same range +2 pow same rat Venators, same range +2 pow to same pow(conditional) +1 rat Croak Raiders, same range +1 pow same rat (the fire makes this the first unit whose single shot does more damage at the same accuracy even if conditional) Brigands, same range, same pow +1 rat (also conditionally better based on the variables on table, prey, support solos etc) Rocketmen, same range pow +2 same rat Hollow men Same range +1 pow +1 rat Invictors with UA have +1 to 2 mat higher than any of these same ranged units and are within a point or two difference. They average +1 to +3 higher pow in melee.
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Post by psycomonky on Jun 26, 2018 4:52:34 GMT
Sooo, speaking of casters...how about those changes to Ravyn? Looking better. I’m always looking at ravyn with a weird eye because half her kit seems to be what I think garryth should have. Sprint being at the top of the list. That being said sprint on her is good, open fire is a spell I wanted when I saw it, and +2 in range on the sparke cannon will work well with her. All in all a good set of changes.
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Post by psycomonky on Jun 26, 2018 5:01:10 GMT
Compared to other short range 10in guns they don’t really have a lot to offer. Their mele is not good enough to threaten jacks and compared to other similar shooting units they trade useful rules like pathfinder, ad, or other for +1 mat and a higher price tag. Not sure if they will settle at -3 but -2 is defiantly justified Do tell which ranged 10 man units have melee good enough to threaten jacks. Also +1 to 2 mat, +1 to 2 ranged pow + 2 to 4 arm, + 1-3 melee pow and that bonus to mat puts them into elite melee unit range. Currently 2 points cheaper than trencher long gunners + ca 1 point cheaper than trenchers +ca, the same price as idrians and errants Generally within 1 point of most other ranged 10 strong units, while being strictly better in melee. Edit: Trenchers, same range +1 pow same rat AKs , Same range +2 pow same rat Idrians Same range +1 pow +1 rat Errants Same range +2 pow same rat Steelheads Same range +1pow +1 rat High shields Same range +2 pow same rat Venators, same range +2 pow to same pow(conditional) +1 rat Croak Raiders, same range +1 pow same rat (the fire makes this the first unit whose single shot does more damage at the same accuracy even if conditional) Brigands, same range, same pow +1 rat (also conditionally better based on the variables on table, prey, support solos etc) Rocketmen, same range pow +2 same rat Hollow men Same range +1 pow +1 rat Invictors with UA have +1 to 2 mat higher than any of these same ranged units and are within a point or two difference. They average +1 to +3 higher pow in melee. Show me the ‘elite mele infantry’ with pow 11 and 8.5 in threat... Also, Idrians , errants, Nyss, and brigands all hit harder on the charge than invictors as well as having obviously better defensive stats and comparable to superior shooting. Only trenchers fall to equilivant mele damage and if that’s elite the word needs to be redefined. Additionally in that list only errants do not have pathfinder or ad or both and that is being fixed...
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Post by mcdermott on Jun 26, 2018 5:43:38 GMT
Mat 7 is elite melee infantry mat. The average ranged unit hits at pow 8 to 9. The things you LIST sure, on the charge can muster up maybe +1 average damage, half of them have a lower mat tho.
Edit: Just saying, you probably shouldn't even get your hopes up for -2, they don't compare so unfavorably as to cost 2 points less than similar units.
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Post by falkman on Jun 26, 2018 5:56:07 GMT
Sooo, speaking of casters...how about those changes to Ravyn? While the changes are interesting and obviously make her better than before, I think they make her too similar to Issyria, and Issyria is a lot better than Ravyn so occupying the same niche means Ravyn likely won’t see much play. I don’t think her melee capability makes up for the difference in power between them.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Jun 26, 2018 7:28:17 GMT
Thyron is built to do work, there are way better casters to play in faction if you want to hide behind a wall and let your jacks do the work. Thyron is a wanna be jack caster with not enough focus to do anything. And if you take a jack army with its own focus then just take a better caster. Here we disagree. Thyron is definitely one of our strongest jack-casters. It depends on the matchup which one is the best. Cleave is effectively a couple extra attacks per game where your opponent is nice enough to give them to you. Oh come on. Sidetep and additional attack die easily generates multiple cleaves on feat turn alone. And that extra attack is usually the one that kills the enemy warcaster. Assail is a weak boundless charge. The feat is cool on jacks, that's it in the warjack support department. Upkeeping Assail cost 1 focus (or 0) and Boundless charge always costs 2 unless you bring Hemerra.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Jun 26, 2018 7:32:52 GMT
Sooo, speaking of casters...how about those changes to Ravyn? "Snipe-feat-go" is now "Run-Snipe-Locomotion-Feat-Openfire-go" 1. Moros runs 16" 2. Ravyn casts Snipe and locomotion to Moros so that enemy caster in range (threat range of 28-31") 3. Ravyn feats 4. Ravyn casts open fire on Moros. Enemy caster DEF is reduced to 5. 5. Everyone shoots the enemy warcaster. 25" threat range on brain damage spray can also mess up some casters.
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Post by onijet01 on Jun 26, 2018 11:52:19 GMT
Thyron is built to do work, there are way better casters to play in faction if you want to hide behind a wall and let your jacks do the work. Thyron is a wanna be jack caster with not enough focus to do anything. And if you take a jack army with its own focus then just take a better caster. Here we disagree. Thyron is definitely one of our strongest jack-casters. It depends on the matchup which one is the best. Cleave is effectively a couple extra attacks per game where your opponent is nice enough to give them to you. Oh come on. Sidetep and additional attack die easily generates multiple cleaves on feat turn alone. And that extra attack is usually the one that kills the enemy warcaster. Assail is a weak boundless charge. The feat is cool on jacks, that's it in the warjack support department. Upkeeping Assail cost 1 focus (or 0) and Boundless charge always costs 2 unless you bring Hemerra. So to your argument as some of its miss leading data. 1. Yes thyrones feat grants a extra melee attack die. But you still have to kill a model to activate cleave. Cleave as a extra attack is limited to ONE so unlike beserk your at best getting 3 melee attacks including cleave before buying attacks. 2. Side step is good but triggers off of initial attacks and melee spacial atacks only so it ill not trigger off of purchased or cleave attacks. 3. Boundless charge is greater than assail hands down as on average you can target 3 jacks vs 2 with assail. Its a upkeep so on turn 2 assumming you hot swap assail you have spent 5 focus for two jacks to benifit vs boundless charges 4. They tie if you use sylis. And if you want jacks to benifit from his feat then only ONE jack can make use of it on feat turn. So yah miss information is a strong argument. On a seriouse note he is ment to run a few powerful warjacks by design not a massive warjack force. Also vyrose 1 will out run thyron every time and more effectively assumming same support.
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seul
Demo Gamer
Posts: 15
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Post by seul on Jun 26, 2018 11:52:30 GMT
I believe Ret has the highest percent of upkeep spells. It would be nice to see some type of free upkeep abilities/theme benefits. Ossyan, Kaelyssa, and Garryth obviously lead the pack.
I think most people play Shyeel theme with Vyros or Rahn, where the first turn free upkeep is only a minor bump to them.
Thyron seems like he's built as if he always has Storm Rager on himself but then he's a focus and a spell down.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Jun 26, 2018 20:48:02 GMT
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Jun 27, 2018 17:51:14 GMT
Sooo, speaking of casters...how about those changes to Ravyn? I'll play her. I always liked to have her in my opponents AD zone by the end of the game in mkii anyways. And seems like she's more suited to that now. I like every change I heard. Just waiting out the CID now. Edit. Seriously though, is there no way to fix the title of this thread?
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jun 28, 2018 2:24:40 GMT
I'll play her. I always liked to have her in my opponents AD zone by the end of the game in mkii anyways. And seems like she's more suited to that now. Really?! Man, that's serious aggression. Camping flags/zones was what I preferred to do with Ravyn most of the time. High risk/high reward and all that? The typo or that it's a little out of date (since they're not really 'spoilers' any more)?
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bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
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Post by bluebeard on Jun 28, 2018 10:17:09 GMT
I'll play her. I always liked to have her in my opponents AD zone by the end of the game in mkii anyways. And seems like she's more suited to that now. Really?! Man, that's serious aggression. Camping flags/zones was what I preferred to do with Ravyn most of the time. High risk/high reward and all that?
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Jun 28, 2018 11:08:48 GMT
Really?! Man, that's serious aggression. Camping flags/zones was what I preferred to do with Ravyn most of the time. High risk/high reward and all that? There's a little bit of hyperbole there. But it happened often enough that I kind of got a reputation for it. One of our big annual local tournies here I had her mulch/shoot through to Haley2 and put her down. I think she was 12/13 inches off my opponents board edge at that point. Don't know why, just always seemed to push really hard with Rayvn, and more often than not it worked out. Haven't touched her once in mkiii. Edit: The funnier thing about my mkii career was that I never once lost to Haley2 with Grayle. Drove my local Swan nuts. (don't get me wrong, lost to other 'casters with him, but never pre-nerf Haley2).
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