Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Jun 4, 2018 19:00:32 GMT
I think the reason Gaspy3 nine Slayers works is less because of how good Slayers are and more because faction-wide Carapace was a really silly idea. Slayers are balanced at being ARM 17 versus shooting, not 21. This list existed at the advent of Mk. III and was kept firmly in control because quality shooting reduced it rapidly. Now all those Slayers have +4 ARM versus shooting and you get three free 7 point arc nodes. The problem is Black Industries, not the models themselves.
However, this is pretty far off topic. Wanted to comment on that though because I just finished having a 40 minute conversation about that very thing on the ride home last night.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 4, 2018 19:06:06 GMT
I think the reason Gaspy3 nine Slayers works is less because of how good Slayers are and more because faction-wide Carapace was a really silly idea. Slayers are balanced at being ARM 17 versus shooting, not 21. This list existed at the advent of Mk. III and was kept firmly in control because quality shooting reduced it rapidly. Now all those Slayers have +4 ARM versus shooting and you get three free 7 point arc nodes. The problem is Black Industries, not the models themselves. However, this is pretty far off topic. Wanted to comment on that though because I just finished having a 40 minute conversation about that very thing on the ride home last night. The issue is, because certain developers who's name rhymes with souls exist, I highly doubt the theme itself will change. Maybe they will nerf slayers, but I don't have much faith there. I do agree the issue is carapace as a free benefit in a jack oriented theme, but cryx players would argue with you otherwise because "MUH JACKS LOSE ARMS TO HANDCANNONS REEEEE" nvm the fact that they are speed 6 and hit really hard considering faction support. Anyways, how bout that harbinger lady, anyone use her successfully in Guardians?
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jun 5, 2018 1:42:34 GMT
mmm, unfortunately, guardians does not benefit much from Harbi's tool kit. Infact, she actually heavily detriments it with purification eliminating all fire continuous effects within 20 inches of her x.x Although Crusader's Call may seem useful to it at first glance, Guardians is all about baiting the opponent in and then overwhelming them with firepower. Since guided hand only works on melee attack rolls, it is also rather nerfed in guardians where sprays and high mat is everywhere. The casters that see the most benefit from Guardians would be the Feora packet, Malekus, and Thyra. It benefits the most from Feora1 and Thyra, though Feora2 suddenly gains a bit of validity if you are running redeemers or arc nodes. In a list where Feora2 can gain some crazy def/armor stats, she'd also be a better light jack/infantry mulcher than Feora1!!!
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jun 5, 2018 7:08:31 GMT
With actual game experience I can firmly say that Harby in Guardians has a lot of great synergies and plays well. Since I finished painting my second unit of Flamebringers, this list has been my pair to Sevvy1's Interdiction warjack gunline and is probably to stay for some time:
Theme :Guardians of the Temple
(Harbinger 1) The Harbinger of Menoth [+24] - Devout [9] - Templar [15]
Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Daughters of the Flame [10] Daughters of the Flame [10] Flame Bringers (max) [17] Flame Bringers (max) [17] Temple Flameguard (max) [11] - Temple Flameguard Officer & Standard [0(4)]
Nicia, Tear of Vengeance [0(5)] Pyrrhus, Flameguard Hero [0(5)] Anastasia di Bray [3]
Vassal Mechanik [1] Wrack [1] Wrack [1]
The only thing this theme lacks IMO is the Hierophant, which forces you to be a little bit more conservative with your Martyrdoms, but you are that little bit safer as a result;) It is also not that strong against more extreme ARM skews, but when those skews are bricky, they are facing a tough scenario challenge in widespread scenarios (Sevvy1's Redeemer battery is there to shred heavies anyway;)).
Other than that there's A LOT of synergies to take advantage of. - good DEF and Stealth doesn not only combine with Awe to great (often demoralising) effect, it also means that you may need to Martyr less, as fewer attacks hit their targets - there's plenty of martyrable large bases to hide Harby from shooting - all units are very capable of surviving on their own if you are forced to spread wider than your CMD range. - Flamebringers are an entire world of wonderful synergies with Harby (in addition to the aforementioned ones). Side Step and Reposition 5 let you return to CMD range after attacking, Guided Hand means almost guaranteed multiple Grievous Wounds on a charge and there are only a few things that match their melee threat under Crusader's Call. - you are not tempted to Martyr free strikes on your turn with the girls
Playing this list is a pleasure and I recommend trying it out before forming strong opinions on what works and what doesn't.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Jun 5, 2018 8:43:56 GMT
Maybe demonic wants to play this with cleansers. Those don't have much synergy, but can be martyred and continue to spray of course. Their mini-feat benefits from crusaders call, sp 10 and assault is lovely when you charge 11 inch. Flame bringers are amazeballs with her. Pre-FM I've used those to great effect. Nicia and Pyrrhus are amazing with her as well. Maybe 1 daughters less and 1 TFG more?
I'm going to try it instead of a FM list for a while.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jun 5, 2018 10:20:54 GMT
Flame bringers are amazeballs with her. Pre-FM I've used those to great effect. Nicia and Pyrrhus are amazing with her as well. Maybe 1 daughters less and 1 TFG more? TFG are excellent indeed! But I was thinking hammerdwarves, to make the army more universal against variety of targets including higher ARM (weaponmaster them or at least slam out of the zones) But I honestly don't know what to cut apart from single Daughters... decisions ;]
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Jun 5, 2018 10:57:44 GMT
Flame bringers are amazeballs with her. Pre-FM I've used those to great effect. Nicia and Pyrrhus are amazing with her as well. Maybe 1 daughters less and 1 TFG more? TFG are excellent indeed! But I was thinking hammerdwarves, to make the army more universal against variety of targets including higher ARM (weaponmaster them or at least slam out of the zones) But I honestly don't know what to cut apart from single Daughters... decisions ;] Ow yes, these are allowed. Pre FM I used 2x KE and 1 flamebringers unit and this was amazing. Then 1 dwarves, 2 flamebringers, Nicia, Pyrrhus and go from there.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jun 6, 2018 2:42:33 GMT
that's true, doing guardians in a non-fire related route would be a possibility. However, since I play skorne as well, it would feel like a watered down version of the crazy cat lady list... very watered down. No pounce, nor tough (willbreaker) No agonizers or kreas (though awe kind of takes care of that) and it also lacks the practically free resurrections, even if it's limited to fury.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jun 8, 2018 13:09:21 GMT
Intersting. I've never seen Guardians as the fire-related theme in the slightest(apart from the fluff/name corellation). It only has a single one, rather average, fire-wielding unit and does nothing at all for the other possible source of fire attacks - our warjacks.
I've always associated Guardians with fast, high-DEF, caster-independent units...and that's about that.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 8, 2018 13:43:53 GMT
that's true, doing guardians in a non-fire related route would be a possibility. However, since I play skorne as well, it would feel like a watered down version of the crazy cat lady list... very watered down. No pounce, nor tough (willbreaker) No agonizers or kreas (though awe kind of takes care of that) and it also lacks the practically free resurrections, even if it's limited to fury. Its not watered down, its just as strong, and probably beats cat lady in the mirror hard landing spots for cats, higher volume of accurate attacks vs lower volume of attacks, Martyrdom more than he can stay death.
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 8, 2018 13:47:01 GMT
Intersting. I've never seen Guardians as the fire-related theme in the slightest(apart from the fluff/name corellation). It only has a single one, rather average, fire-wielding unit and does nothing at all for the other possible source of fire attacks - our warjacks. I've always associated Guardians with fast, high-DEF, caster-independent units...and that's about that. That's how i've always played it to. Swarm them with small based models or fast cav.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jun 8, 2018 14:27:56 GMT
that's true, doing guardians in a non-fire related route would be a possibility. However, since I play skorne as well, it would feel like a watered down version of the crazy cat lady list... very watered down. No pounce, nor tough (willbreaker) No agonizers or kreas (though awe kind of takes care of that) and it also lacks the practically free resurrections, even if it's limited to fury. Its not watered down, its just as strong, and probably beats cat lady in the mirror hard landing spots for cats, higher volume of accurate attacks vs lower volume of attacks, Martyrdom more than he can stay death. Actually I stopped having trouble with Makeda2+Ferox once I started playing Harby in Guardians. They have range advantage but Feat stops them for one turn, Grievous Wounds on demand shred them casually and even under Makeda's Feat they don't hit high DEF+Awe that often. One of my regular opponents actually stopped using Makeda2 once Harby in Guardians became one of the lists in my regular pair.
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 8, 2018 15:10:58 GMT
Its not watered down, its just as strong, and probably beats cat lady in the mirror hard landing spots for cats, higher volume of accurate attacks vs lower volume of attacks, Martyrdom more than he can stay death. Actually I stopped having trouble with Makeda2+Ferox once I started playing Harby in Guardians. They have range advantage but Feat stops them for one turn, Grievous Wounds on demand shred them casually and even under Makeda's Feat they don't hit high DEF+Awe that often. One of my regular opponents actually stopped using Makeda2 once Harby in Guardians became one of the lists in my regular pair. Playing Thyra shutdown my regular cat opponent. Grievous wounds where ever I needed it was not fun times for him.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 8, 2018 15:17:16 GMT
Typically in my experience all you have to do is shut down tough, and then you can easily overwhelm stay death.
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 8, 2018 16:20:56 GMT
Typically in my experience all you have to do is shut down tough, and then you can easily overwhelm stay death. True ... however grievous wounds shuts down both pretty effectively. What other method of shutting down tough in the protectorate would you recommend vs models with steady?
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