Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 2, 2018 11:25:53 GMT
Magnus 2 I’m struggling to see. You should be able to weather his feat and martyrdom When our local guy plays magnus 2, he runs about 5 nomads, comes at you from an angle, and denies you movement towards that angle. I imagine this is fairly standard for magnus but I really have no comparison. The issue is that harbinger's kit carries only one answer to nomads, which is martyrdom. They can run into awe and not care, and weather her feat easily. I've not been running many guns on her, so his feat usually grants two alphas and significant scenario presence. While I haven't lost to him by assassination, the grindy playstyle she presents does quite poorly against someone with a scenario leg up on you.
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Post by cgdeth on Jun 2, 2018 12:55:02 GMT
I know Harby plays best as an infantry caster, but she does have 10 focus, have you considered running more jacks with her to counter the 5 nomads?
I was comparing Magnus1 with 5 nomads to Harby with 5 Crusaders...jeez the Nomad is freaking amazing
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 2, 2018 14:26:25 GMT
I know Harby plays best as an infantry caster, but she does have 10 focus, have you considered running more jacks with her to counter the 5 nomads? I was comparing Magnus1 with 5 nomads to Harby with 5 Crusaders...jeez the Nomad is freaking amazing Most 10 point options are significantly better. Look at the damn slayer. I still think the crusader is appropriately coated. I am of the opinion the other options are undercosted
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Post by cgdeth on Jun 2, 2018 14:44:51 GMT
I know Harby plays best as an infantry caster, but she does have 10 focus, have you considered running more jacks with her to counter the 5 nomads? I was comparing Magnus1 with 5 nomads to Harby with 5 Crusaders...jeez the Nomad is freaking amazing Most 10 point options are significantly better. Look at the damn slayer. I still think the crusader is appropriately coated. I am of the opinion the other options are undercosted I mean under battle out crusader hits at dice +1 vs the Nomad while the Nomad hits at dice minus 1 and dice minus 5 for the fist, while the crusader fist hits at -3. I think the crusader might be undercosted by 1 but the other jacks are undercosted by 2-3.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jun 2, 2018 21:02:34 GMT
Most 10 point options are significantly better. Look at the damn slayer. I still think the crusader is appropriately coated. I am of the opinion the other options are undercosted I mean under battle out crusader hits at dice +1 vs the Nomad while the Nomad hits at dice minus 1 and dice minus 5 for the fist, while the crusader fist hits at -3. I think the crusader might be undercosted by 1 but the other jacks are undercosted by 2-3. Under Battle. Without, it's dice -1 for the club and dice -5 for the fist. You have to effectively pay a point for battle (4 choir members for 4 points), so the Crusader is pretty much fine.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jun 3, 2018 0:31:04 GMT
the cost of jacks and beasts partly have to do with their effectiveness within their factions. Think of how many legion beasts would be considered absolutely broken if they had the access to skorne paingivers x.x The cost of menoth jacks are much the same. Due to increased effectiveness, they cost more than counterparts. That's kind of what makes factions interesting ^-^
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Post by jisidro on Jun 3, 2018 8:19:27 GMT
A crusader should cost the same on every faction. The choir's power should be reflected on the choir not on everything else.
The question should be, is ability X a good idea to give to faction Y that also has access to Z.
I believe the cheap beaters shouldn't hit as hard as they do. The top beaters should distinguish themselves mainly by hitting harder and they don't.
IMO crusaders shouldn't be pow18, slayer shouldn't have combo or bite and marauder should have combo or siege weapon.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 3, 2018 13:01:47 GMT
A crusader should cost the same on every faction. The choir's power should be reflected on the choir not on everything else. The question should be, is ability X a good idea to give to faction Y that also has access to Z. I believe the cheap beaters shouldn't hit as hard as they do. The top beaters should distinguish themselves mainly by hitting harder and they don't. IMO crusaders shouldn't be pow18, slayer shouldn't have combo or bite and marauder should have combo or siege weapon. I would agree about crusader and such if it was mat 7. But at mat 6, even def 12 heavies are going to cause a miss or 2 (dice willing) Also speed 4, and no special rules. I just don't see how the crusader is under-costed in any way. In fact I would make the argument that almost all of the protectorate stable of jacks is well costed for their role. Vanquishers are probably a point r 2 too expensive, and the purifier could use a price drop, but as far as a solid standard we can use for other factions, I think protectorate is a good model. Typically I think any heavy with mat 7, that is less than 12 points, is under-costed. That is elite level mat and allows for less attacks to miss, or for you to land big blows on higher def targets. Slayer is a perfect example, being mat 7, combo striking to pow 22 on the charge, and having a high speed just make it too darn cheap. It was not a big deal before it got the carapace theme, but now...its just too good for its cost. I do think we are going horribly off topic though Perhaps we can move this to general?
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Post by jisidro on Jun 3, 2018 16:13:18 GMT
I didn't say overcosted. I think budget heavies should not hit as hard as expensive heavies. It's a way to add value to the heavy beaters...
As to mat6... Hordes is usually more of a BG faction and most heavies are mat 6.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 3, 2018 16:18:00 GMT
I didn't say overcosted. I think budget heavies should not hit as hard as expensive heavies. It's a way to add value to the heavy beaters... As to mat6... Hordes is usually more of a BG faction and most heavies are mat 6. They also get 7 attacks per heavy when running hot.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 3, 2018 17:06:41 GMT
I didn't say overcosted. I think budget heavies should not hit as hard as expensive heavies. It's a way to add value to the heavy beaters... As to mat6... Hordes is usually more of a BG faction and most heavies are mat 6. They also get 7 attacks per heavy when running hot. Where do you get 7?
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 3, 2018 18:55:01 GMT
They also get 7 attacks per heavy when running hot. Where do you get 7? trolls, mostly. 2 base, 5 fury.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 3, 2018 19:35:00 GMT
trolls, mostly. 2 base, 5 fury. Only 2 Heavies in trolls have 5 Fury. Rok and the mauler. The rest of the heavies In hordes sit at 4 with budget heavies sitting at 3. I think a few other character heavies have 5 but 5 Fury is not the average. It’s above average. Most heavies that cost 14+ points have 4 Fury and 2 initials. So 6 attacks. Or one more than the average jack. Those attacks are also typically at a lower pow.
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Jun 4, 2018 16:54:44 GMT
trolls, mostly. 2 base, 5 fury. Only 2 Heavies in trolls have 5 Fury. Rok and the mauler. The rest of the heavies In hordes sit at 4 with budget heavies sitting at 3. I think a few other character heavies have 5 but 5 Fury is not the average. It’s above average. Most heavies that cost 14+ points have 4 Fury and 2 initials. So 6 attacks. Or one more than the average jack. Those attacks are also typically at a lower pow. (Still going horribly off topic, but alas) But many of those factions have multiple ways to boost the damage output of those heavies to make them outperform their jack counter parts, plus the flexibility of choosing to make another attack or boost damage based on how much space you have left (fury) vs. planning ahead and hoping you have enough focus or you end up wasting focus because the target died too quickly, or you don't have enough and said heavy survives. It's balancing act that skews in weird ways once you start adding in damage buffs and the focus vs. fury debate.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 4, 2018 17:15:42 GMT
Choco , I agree there is a lot of depth to the discussion, but also remember, those heavies need those buffs to reliably kill another heavy. Trolls need rage, circle needs primal, minions needs both, and Skorne needs enrage. So using the same argument I often see for chior, you are typically adding multiple layers of support in points. In a game where killing pieces and trading at a better rate than your opponent, when you are taking half as many heavies as an opponent, and can only kill 1 per heavy, you are at a disadvantage from the get go. Not many casters in hordes can reasonably achieve a damage threshold where one heavy can trade 2 heavies consistently. I think the only heavies capable of trading multiple are expensive character heavies (who typically cost twice as much as jacks anyway) Its for this reason that gaspy 3 9 slayers works. Because it cheats you out of the trading game with under-costed heavy warjacks. It just so happens though, that after khador received some price hikes, there are very few jack spam lists that can do what gaspy 3 does. Amon kind of does it with dervishes, but they are way easier to kill than def 13 arm 19(21 from shooting) slayers. I do think protectorate jacks are well costed (barring a few obvious ones like the dervish and vanquisher) I also think a lot of the issues for hordes discrepancies have been fixed with CiD. Beasts are getting cost discounts where they need to be discounted and this makes hordes more capable of playing into jack spam with beast spam, where earlier in mk3, it was not a very good option for most hordes factions. Particularly circle and Legion. All in all I think things are not nearly as bad as they were in early mk3. CiD has really helped in the jack vs beast department.
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