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Post by Charistoph on Aug 17, 2018 22:22:20 GMT
Expecting every theme to be competitive is profoundly unrealistic. In a game about pitting your math vs the math of other groups, there will almost always be a "best" option. It bothers me a little that people who've wargamed as long as most people claimed don't internalize that fact better. It isn't as though there was much variety in working competitive lists prior to themes either. I disagree. Every Theme should be competitive, but not universally competitive. WMH is not a rock-paper-scissors game, but closer to being rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock game. It's a game where you have options, and those options may not be ever-present in the same format in another army. You may not have a lot of rocks in your army, but you do have some spocks, or vice versa.
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Post by mcdermott on Aug 18, 2018 2:13:42 GMT
And thus far the only ones who don't have at least a pair of worthwhile themes (judging by tournament results) are circle and limited release factions.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Aug 18, 2018 7:03:11 GMT
Cryx is in fact the perfect example of internal balance between themes. Infernal Machines is kinda crap, but all of the others are good and have their place in pairings. Saying that Cryx is lolGhaspy9Slayers the faction is so wrong it almost hurts.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Aug 18, 2018 7:50:33 GMT
Also cygnar has only 4 themes, and the competitive one is gravediggers. Its the common theme in all their 2 list formats. Yknow what you don't see? Storm division/storm division Storm division/sons Or even much storm division/heavy metal. Gravediggers carries cygnar. Similarly, Cryx's wins are based in black industries. Black industries carries the faction, its the common thread for most cryx wins in the same way gravediggers is for cygnar. Nerf those two themes a little and watch their wins fade. This is grossly incorrect. Black Industries is not played (solely) because it's overpowered (and the jury is still out on that one - I'm inclined to think that any problem is with Gaspy3 and/or the slayer, moreso than the theme) or even the strongest list in Cryx (that's probably still Skarre1 Dark Host) but because it's a question list which asks a very different question than the rest of Cryx. As a consequence, it makes a very good pair for a more conventional infantry-oriented Cryx list, and can force a nasty list chicken situation for the opponent. Even if it were the case that Black Industries is overpowered and far and away the best theme in Cryx...so what? If all of the other themes are viable (and with the possible exception of infernal machines, they are), you've still got a faction with 4 balanced themes. Nerf black industries slightly, and make it 5. Problem solved. Nothing about what you've said, even if I accept it as true (and I do not) supports your argument that 'true' balance (defined as every theme having a place in the competitive meta) is not possible.
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Post by mcdermott on Aug 18, 2018 8:39:47 GMT
Except i dug through their lists, their placings are OVERWHELMINGLY Black industries/X or Gravediggers/X in the case of cygnar. Gaspy3 wasn't a problem UNTIL black industries. Its disingenuous to pretend that their placings aren't heavily influenced by carapace on their jacks preventing them from being shot down to manageability on the way in. The strength of black industries and gravediggers lets the second list be incredibly niche, or completely unplayed over the course of a tournament. When the second list is completely optional, and you have no requirement to even play it, but one theme is overwhelmingly represented in top placings with a caster and models that weren't nearly as powerful with the prior "jack" theme, evidence points to the theme, not the caster.
Cryx is carried by black industries, Cygnar is carried by gravediggers.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Aug 18, 2018 10:09:16 GMT
OncomingStorm has it right.
Black Industries is so prevalent because it stops you having a generic "cryx drop". Anything you have that would play well into ghost fleet would usually play well into dark host, will certainly play well into Scourge and likewise play well into slaughter fleet. Black Industries is so common because it pairs extremely well with any other theme you could want to play in Cryx, better imo than any other theme as its counters are so very different. Gaspy3 pushes this a little further, but its not like other BI lists (Denny2; Coven; Venny; even Shade1) don't bring that same pairing advantage.
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 18, 2018 18:04:23 GMT
There is only one theme in both Cryx and Cygnar that is sub par.
For Cryx it’s Infernal Machines, because the meta really hates on disposable infantry right now.
For Cygnar it’s sons of the tempest, because it lacks a way to deal with literally any armor. (Based off my experience)
Honestly Warmachine factions have it pretty good with themes. For Cryx and Cygnar, the themes that are most common are there because they answer most of their own problems. Cryx has carapace to deliver the typically squishy jacks. Grave diggers has masseddef skew andblast Immunity to deliver typically easy to remove troops, and a surprising amount of armor hate.
The best themes have little to no big weaknesses. But balanced themes have a good balance of each.
For example: Faithfull masses typically struggles with skews, but it also runs a strong infantry/jack list which gives it a very well rounded approach. Exemplar interdiction struggles into shooting, but it has a really hard punch when it gets there.
It’s perfectly reasonable to want and strive for game balance. Havingthe mentality that balance is impossible just feels like giving up and being content with a game that still needs fixing.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Aug 18, 2018 18:23:12 GMT
There is only one theme in both Cryx and Cygnar that is sub par. For Cryx it’s Infernal Machines, because the meta really hates on disposable infantry right now. For Cygnar it’s sons of the tempest, because it lacks a way to deal with literally any armor. (Based off my experience) Honestly Warmachine factions have it pretty good with themes. For Cryx and Cygnar, the themes that are most common are there because they answer most of their own problems. Cryx has carapace to deliver the typically squishy jacks. Grave diggers has masseddef skew andblast Immunity to deliver typically easy to remove troops, and a surprising amount of armor hate. The best themes have little to no big weaknesses. But balanced themes have a good balance of each. For example: Faithfull masses typically struggles with skews, but it also runs a strong infantry/jack list which gives it a very well rounded approach. Exemplar interdiction struggles into shooting, but it has a really hard punch when it gets there. It’s perfectly reasonable to want and strive for game balance. Havingthe mentality that balance is impossible just feels like giving up and being content with a game that still needs fixing. Sons of the tempest actually can handle armor reasonably well with the right casters. Alternatively, it can focus on scenario, and just use it's million pushes to never actually have to deal with the armor in question (barring no push lists, obviously) Hordes (aside from Skorne, which got a full rework) is the problem, by and large. Circle has 1 competitive theme, and the best I'm hoping for post-CID is that we might have 3. Legion has 2 competitive themes - though PT is strong enough that it can just about carry the faction. Trolls have 2 competitive themes, and only 1 (Storm of the North) has any kind of build variation. I've said it before. The correct approach (from a game balance perspective) for CID would has been to focus on the Hordes faction first, and give each of them a Skorne (or Ret) level overview and tune-up, before giving both Cryx and Cygnar 2 CIDs inside a year. Obviously, the latter approach is better from a sales standpoint (Cygnar and Cryx are their two most popular, and by extension, best selling, factions), but from a balance perspective...no. unded - Note that I'm not saying BI isn't potentially problematic. Cryx putting opponents into a super awkward list chicken situation was what made the Dark Host/Ghost Fleet pairing so problematic, and that ended with nerfs to both. I wouldn't be surprised to see nerfs to BI/Skarre Host at some point, for that reason - as the competitive options in a faction expands, they can't be allowed to ask questions that are as hard as they could when both of their lists had to be fairly similar. Skarre1 Stalkers on the 27" line (backed up by two wraith engines) is a hell of a question to answer, as is 'many unshootable warjacks', and I will be utterly unsurprised if one or both of those lists sees nerfs at some point. Point is ( mcdermott), even if that does happen, and assuming that the offending themes aren't nuked from orbit (and PP has been a bit better about that recently)...Cryx will have 5 competitively viable themes.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Aug 18, 2018 19:59:55 GMT
I don't really see it being such a hard question, but then again I face a lot Irusk2, EI, and Strakhov2, so BI is actually a fairly weak drop around my neck of the woods. I fully accept that could be a meta thing.
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Post by mcdermott on Aug 18, 2018 23:55:27 GMT
You won't actually know if those themes will remain competitively viable until the absolutely dominant theme is nerfed. Again they don't even have to PLAY the other list. The fact that it doesn't matter what other list you take is a commentary on the dominant list, not the other ones.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Aug 18, 2018 23:59:42 GMT
You won't actually know if those themes will remain competitively viable until the absolutely dominant theme is nerfed. Again they don't even have to PLAY the other list. The fact that it doesn't matter what other list you take is a commentary on the dominant list, not the other ones.Really? Are you claiming that all of those Cryx and cygnar players are one listing every event? Because I can assure you that they are not. The other list gets played. Commonly, the 'dominant list' is included in the pairing primarily to create good matchups for the other list, which ends up seeing more actual table time. Methinks you don't actually understand how competitive warmachine operates.
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Post by mcdermott on Aug 19, 2018 0:12:14 GMT
By all means enlighten me with your tales of high end play.
Or maybe go do a little legwork to provide evidence that their other lists are seeing more table time.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Aug 19, 2018 1:05:12 GMT
By all means enlighten me with your tales of high end play. Or maybe go do a little legwork to provide evidence that their other lists are seeing more table time. Most recently? Lock and Load masters, round 3 got paired with a Cryx player running Skarre1 DarkHost + Denny2 Black Industries. He dropped Dark Host. Because BI is a worse matchup into Krueger2, and a much worse matchup into Baldur2. This is not unrepresentative of my experience playing into Cryx. Cryx player from my meta took Skarre3 Slaughter Fleet + something to Lock and Load Masters. The something might have been BI, but I don't think it was. He dropped Skarre3 in all but one match. He took a Ghost Fleet/Dark Host pair to the IG, so no BI there. Cygnar player from my meta took a Nemo3 Heavy Metal + Haley3 Gravediggers list to IG. He I believe he dropped after 3 rounds, but he definitely played Nemo3 in round 1. Unsure about the others. Lock and Load IG finals - The only reason Aaron Wale dropped BI into as bad of a matchup as Grymkin DM is because the terrain left a massive stretch of the centrefield where there were no landing zones for a huge base, so wraith engines would have been paperweights in that matchup. Without that factor, Dark Host would have been a far superior drop in that scenario. And so on. I don't believe there's actually a good resource that shows both top-tier tournament results and how often each list was played. So unless you can point me at such a resource, all the evidence is going to be anecdotal. In any case, you are the one making the fairly substantial claim that BI isn't just stronger than the other Cryx themes (debatable) but that it's so much stronger that it obsoletes them entirely. It's incumbent on you to show evidence in support of this point, moreso than it is on me (or the other players who have expressed disagreement with you) to prove you wrong.
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Post by mcdermott on Aug 19, 2018 1:38:00 GMT
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Post by challenger on Aug 19, 2018 2:28:04 GMT
i'm hoping that Circle goes to 3 competitive themes, but the fact that makes me deeply worried is Call of the Wild doesn't have the scenario pieces it needs to thrive in 2018. So honestly i think circle will only have 2 competitive themes
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