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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 17, 2018 8:22:46 GMT
Contrary to earlier versions of the game where the standard way was each player deploying at 10 and SR modifying this to 7 and 10, in MK3, 7" for first player and 10" for second is actually in Prime (page 26)
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 17, 2018 8:23:19 GMT
I've heard CoC have infantry, but who knows? I think that's more a problem with the meta, and possibly the TEP being so good. The recursion and attrition in that list is very strong, but since multiple factions have blanket RFP themes and almost all of them are played in a competitive pairing, the list suffers greatly since wearing your opponent down is all it really does. There's only two commonly played themes with RFP; Masters of War and Band of Heroes. I think the lack of Clockwork Legions is more down to them not being able to use all of their good tools (Servitors, TEP, less Vectors), and the theme benefits of DI being on a completely different level.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 17, 2018 8:42:21 GMT
I think that's more a problem with the meta, and possibly the TEP being so good. The recursion and attrition in that list is very strong, but since multiple factions have blanket RFP themes and almost all of them are played in a competitive pairing, the list suffers greatly since wearing your opponent down is all it really does. There's only two commonly played themes with RFP; Masters of War and Band of Heroes. I think the lack of Clockwork Legions is more down to them not being able to use all of their good tools (Servitors, TEP, less Vectors), and the theme benefits of DI being on a completely different level. I don't know if it's just a meta thing, but I see Trolls/BoH every-damn-where, to a point where I basically have a dedicated Trollblood drop
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Post by MrHaystacks on Aug 17, 2018 9:04:15 GMT
Taking 2 points off the galleon would boost it. It probably doesn't go far enough but 2pts while it waits for CID? Yea I'd take that. The Circle Goats? A small pow increase, or fury increase, Pts drop? (Don't play circle so these are guesses). Small changes here and there. The Biggest culprits are known. Some take more finesse. Some like most of the Khador jack changes are as simple as +/- 1 pts. Do the changes now, with the plan to add them to the legacy changes in the next CID. If they were the wrong change then change them properly. If that was enough then leave them alone. It would keep things ticking over, but like Kaley says to Mal " I need a new motivator or we are dead in the water" It keeps the game flying until we get that motivator. Think of it as an extended CID week.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 17, 2018 9:10:44 GMT
A mate of mine plays Axis Clockwork Legion with lots of Medium Infantry to pretty good effect, basically he just clocks all of his opponents
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Aug 17, 2018 9:23:04 GMT
Lucant CWL is also relevant.
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Post by challenger on Aug 17, 2018 11:24:32 GMT
Lucant CWL is also relevant. from what people with CoC experience has told me Axis DI/ Lucant CWL is "The Pairing" that they think is ideal. Lucant seems very strong
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Aug 17, 2018 11:30:15 GMT
I would agree with that, though I don't know how the release of Locke and other shifts in the meta (such as the Nemo3 nerf) have impacted this. I assume the latter only improved Lucant CWL.
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Post by Charistoph on Aug 17, 2018 16:05:15 GMT
It's very clear they don't want to explicitly mix organized play and game rules. This said, they have made changes to casters/models because they felt the model wouldn't relevant within the SR frame. This is the standard excuse for Advanced Move and all the changes that happen when things shoot into deploy, aka, SR deploy. SR is the most common way to play WMH, so naturally it would be a focus. I have stated that competition (of which SR is a part) is one of the goals of WMH. Default would mean that it is part of the ruleset. It may be the default go to for most players, but that does not mean it is the default within the rules.
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Post by mcdermott on Aug 17, 2018 20:00:16 GMT
Really? Cause from what ive seen reports are showing one of the more balanced environments for win postings, with cryx above average, minions/CoC below/needs work and most other people pretty close. I don't feel the game is massively unbalanced, no; hence the joking emoji. That said, I don't feel that it's exactly balanced either. Circle is the Bones faction. Skorne is the Animantarax faction. Retribution might finally have more than one theme; we'll have to see how the CID pans out. Every Merc pair I've seen has Ossrum Irregulars. I've heard CoC have infantry, but who knows? I look forward to all the factions having a better spread of competitive themes, but at the current CID rates I think that's going to take a while. Expecting every theme to be competitive is profoundly unrealistic. In a game about pitting your math vs the math of other groups, there will almost always be a "best" option. It bothers me a little that people who've wargamed as long as most people claimed don't internalize that fact better. It isn't as though there was much variety in working competitive lists prior to themes either.
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 17, 2018 20:32:27 GMT
Expecting every theme to be competitive is profoundly unrealistic. In a game about pitting your math vs the math of other groups, there will almost always be a "best" option. It bothers me a little that people who've wargamed as long as most people claimed don't internalize that fact better. It isn't as though there was much variety in working competitive lists prior to themes either. Is it, though? Sure, there's always going to be better and worse options; Wolves of Winter isn't ever going to see much play, for example. But if PP's aim with the CID isn't to get all the themes to a point where they represent a reasonable option, (even if it's just as an off list/specific counter), then what on earth is the point of it? Even if it's just to sell new models they still need the themes to be worth buying in to. It doesn't matter what lists looked like before themes, any more than it matters what, say, a Denny2 list was like before her rework. Things continue to change, and I see no issue in hoping that they change for the better.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Aug 17, 2018 20:49:22 GMT
I don't feel the game is massively unbalanced, no; hence the joking emoji. That said, I don't feel that it's exactly balanced either. Circle is the Bones faction. Skorne is the Animantarax faction. Retribution might finally have more than one theme; we'll have to see how the CID pans out. Every Merc pair I've seen has Ossrum Irregulars. I've heard CoC have infantry, but who knows? I look forward to all the factions having a better spread of competitive themes, but at the current CID rates I think that's going to take a while. Expecting every theme to be competitive is profoundly unrealistic. In a game about pitting your math vs the math of other groups, there will almost always be a "best" option. It bothers me a little that people who've wargamed as long as most people claimed don't internalize that fact better. It isn't as though there was much variety in working competitive lists prior to themes either. Looks at Cryx, with 5/6 themes seeing competitive play. Looks at Cygnar, with all themes seeing competitive play (though sons is borderline, I will admit) Looks at Circle, with 1/5 themes seeing competitive play Yup, sure looks like it's impossible to balance themes so they're all competitively viable, and not at all like PP have their own priorities for which factions deserve fixes ASAP, and which should wait years to get touched by CID.
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Post by mcdermott on Aug 17, 2018 21:21:03 GMT
Expecting every theme to be competitive is profoundly unrealistic. In a game about pitting your math vs the math of other groups, there will almost always be a "best" option. It bothers me a little that people who've wargamed as long as most people claimed don't internalize that fact better. It isn't as though there was much variety in working competitive lists prior to themes either. Is it, though? Sure, there's always going to be better and worse options; Wolves of Winter isn't ever going to see much play, for example. But if PP's aim with the CID isn't to get all the themes to a point where they represent a reasonable option, (even if it's just as an off list/specific counter), then what on earth is the point of it? Even if it's just to sell new models they still need the themes to be worth buying in to. It doesn't matter what lists looked like before themes, any more than it matters what, say, a Denny2 list was like before her rework. Things continue to change, and I see no issue in hoping that they change for the better. Well first off it's important to remember that not everyone in this game plays it for the rawest most bleeding edge competitive play. I played mk2 harkevich a TON because mechano ham and enjoyed the hell out of it. Also "is it though?" isn't a very convincing argument, i get that you don't believe it but when i say something like...it has never happened or even been close to happening in the past thats actual evidence. There is no evidence that its possible, no game in the history of wargames has managed it, no ccg in the history of ccg's has managed it, so constant grousing as though they're somehow falling short of a standard by it not existing is like being mad thunderstorms don't rain M+M's. Its never happened and frankly never will because there is always a mathematically superior option, player skill levels vary, and table terrain varies
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Post by mcdermott on Aug 17, 2018 21:34:22 GMT
Also cygnar has only 4 themes, and the competitive one is gravediggers. Its the common theme in all their 2 list formats. Yknow what you don't see? Storm division/storm division Storm division/sons Or even much storm division/heavy metal. Gravediggers carries cygnar.
Similarly, Cryx's wins are based in black industries. Black industries carries the faction, its the common thread for most cryx wins in the same way gravediggers is for cygnar. Nerf those two themes a little and watch their wins fade.
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 17, 2018 22:20:56 GMT
Is it, though? Sure, there's always going to be better and worse options; Wolves of Winter isn't ever going to see much play, for example. But if PP's aim with the CID isn't to get all the themes to a point where they represent a reasonable option, (even if it's just as an off list/specific counter), then what on earth is the point of it? Even if it's just to sell new models they still need the themes to be worth buying in to. It doesn't matter what lists looked like before themes, any more than it matters what, say, a Denny2 list was like before her rework. Things continue to change, and I see no issue in hoping that they change for the better. Well first off it's important to remember that not everyone in this game plays it for the rawest most bleeding edge competitive play. I played mk2 harkevich a TON because mechano ham and enjoyed the hell out of it. Also "is it though?" isn't a very convincing argument, i get that you don't believe it but when i say something like...it has never happened or even been close to happening in the past thats actual evidence. There is no evidence that its possible, no game in the history of wargames has managed it, no ccg in the history of ccg's has managed it, so constant grousing as though they're somehow falling short of a standard by it not existing is like being mad thunderstorms don't rain M+M's. Its never happened and frankly never will because there is always a mathematically superior option, player skill levels vary, and table terrain variesIt's not that I don't believe you, it's just that it's in no way relevant. I fully understand what you're getting at, but it's got nothing to do with what I'm trying to say. The point I'm apparently failing to convey is not that I want all things to be perfectly balanced, it's that several factions' players feel like they either can't play large amounts of their models competitively, or that they are over-reliant on specific models. This is terrible for the heath of the game, and is obviously what the CID is designed to mitigate. My actual complaint was not that we don't live in some weird balance-nirvana, but that I feel the CID process will take a long time to iron out anything that crops up. As for the overall balance thing; nothing wrong with aiming high.
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