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Post by Aegis on Apr 27, 2018 9:59:52 GMT
I don't complain that there are not new players. I know why it's happening (partially thanks to the silly decisions of disbanding Press Gangers, partially thanks to the forum closure, and partially thanks to all other silly decisions of the devs) Oh? You think rants like yours don't add to the problem? I see the Global Moderator Tag under your name. Did you really make this forum just to Rage at the Heavens like some sort of scorned lover that can't shut up about an ex? Or do you actually give a Firetruck about the game and its community and would like to keep it positive and optimistic? I know perfectly well what side of the aisle I stand. I knew when I got the black 5 years ago. Calling me a fanboy does not jade me. I just spent 4 days playing WM/H and running Scrambles at Kingdom Con, it had the best turn out in years. People that are actually playing the game are enjoying it greatly. Frankly you should be glad there are voices like Farnsworth trying to be positive here. Unless of course, you are happy with being Global Moderator of a toxic cesspool. Even if he does not totally agrees with me, Oncoming Storm explained my point pretty well. I helped opening this forum just to let the community continue to have a place to discuss the game freely, and had to do so since PP had the great idea of closing their forum and the faction forums (like the Khador forum that you seem to enjoy) just to put the dust under the carpet and tacitate dissenting voices. (And in fact we haven't an official place to talk about most things without nazy moderation anymore). I'm not necessarily always negative, nor I'm always positive. I praise what I think are good ideas (and I do that quite often even difending what I think are good decisions against other people, i could report examples), and I speak clearly my dissent to things that I think are bad ideas. It's called trying to be realistic instead of taking a part blindly like you seem to have done. If you see me more often negative than positive lately, it's not because I enjoy to do it, but simply because the errors are starting to pile up and, loving the game at least as much as you do, I get pissed off when some easily avoidable bullshit happens. And no. Having been on your side until about 2 years ago, I know that "blindly positive" people are pretty much as bad as "blindly negative" people, since those two groups are the ones that most often go into shitty flames that really make things toxic. If all people tried to not take blindly a side and look objectively to what happens, often the most shitty discussions won't even happen. People would either rejoy when PP does a good thing, or agree that they did an error when they make bad decision (and by so, helps them notice and correct those errors). Trying to defend errors just to "be positive" has the only effect of pissing people off even more. The only times a topic goes to hell and forums look like "toxic cesspools" is when people with pre-set, conflicting, blind idehologies meet, and blindly positive people are half of the source of that.
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Post by The Snark Knight on Apr 27, 2018 10:43:37 GMT
To be honest I think the biggest threat to Warmachine and Hordes is not that the game is becoming more/less balanced, it is that the barrier to entry is so high. Not only from a learning curve point of view (it's not so much a curve but a sheer cliff), but from a financial point of view, a new player has to drop a lot of money to get enough models to build a 75 point theme force, and those models then have no overlap with any other theme force almost, so if they want two lists that are different themes they have to drop a whole bunch more money. Other games like 40k and Age of Sigmar, for all their faults game play and balance wise, are a lot easier to get into, whenever I play at my FLGS there is always tons of GW games being played. Maybe I was playing the wrong faction at the time, or maybe the scale of 40k has changed, but it cost me way more to buy into 40k than it did to buy a single list for Warmachine. And plenty of people were playing Warmachine at low points values while I was working my way up.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Apr 27, 2018 10:45:41 GMT
I do believe that positive attitude is up for less conflict potential. The statement "this is fine" usually makes for short discussions I think it is always the saltiness that then gets people emotional. But that is also "just my opinion".
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 27, 2018 11:08:50 GMT
To be honest I think the biggest threat to Warmachine and Hordes is not that the game is becoming more/less balanced, it is that the barrier to entry is so high. Not only from a learning curve point of view (it's not so much a curve but a sheer cliff), but from a financial point of view, a new player has to drop a lot of money to get enough models to build a 75 point theme force, and those models then have no overlap with any other theme force almost, so if they want two lists that are different themes they have to drop a whole bunch more money. Other games like 40k and Age of Sigmar, for all their faults game play and balance wise, are a lot easier to get into, whenever I play at my FLGS there is always tons of GW games being played. Maybe I was playing the wrong faction at the time, or maybe the scale of 40k has changed, but it cost me way more to buy into 40k than it did to buy a single list for Warmachine. And plenty of people were playing Warmachine at low points values while I was working my way up. When I got into Warmachine in 2012, it was pitched as being cheaper than 40k, because it required less models, and the models themselves were cheaper.
However now the prices of some of the Warmachine stuff in the UK compared to GW products is pretty steep. And I appreciate that may be affected by the fact GW models are produced in the country I live in, and the Warmachine plastic and resin stuff is either shipped from US/China, but all the metal stuff is cast by Ceberus here in the UK to distribute to Europe. But here are a couple of example
The recent trencher Longgunners cost £45 for 11 models, the new Age of Sigmar Namarti Reavers cost £30 per 10 models, and the Longgunners are cast her in the UK, its gets worse for resin models, the Trollkin Marauders for Cryx are £70 here in the UK, the Trencher Blockhouse is £48, for the price of a tiny, crappy bit of resin from PP, I could buy a Stormraven Gunship
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Post by Aegis on Apr 27, 2018 11:31:50 GMT
I do believe that positive attitude is up for less conflict potential. The statement "this is fine" usually makes for short discussions I think it is always the saltiness that then gets people emotional. But that is also "just my opinion". Well, here the positive guys were the first starting to attack me personally or implying that saying that I think some decisions are bad produces "toxic cesspools", so I respectfully disagree. Also, "that thing is fine" doesn't make up for short discussions in my experience, since people that think that it's not fine at all usally get even more pissed off is someone denies the evidence. Some of the most scorned "toxic people" in the forums are people that always say that everything in their faction "is fine" even when clearly isn't. I say this while having passed most of my warmachine forums time on the "positive" side, and that never helped me to avoid discussions, actually the opposite.
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Post by beardmonk on Apr 27, 2018 12:21:57 GMT
To be honest I think the biggest threat to Warmachine and Hordes is not that the game is becoming more/less balanced, it is that the barrier to entry is so high. Not only from a learning curve point of view (it's not so much a curve but a sheer cliff), but from a financial point of view, a new player has to drop a lot of money to get enough models to build a 75 point theme force, and those models then have no overlap with any other theme force almost, so if they want two lists that are different themes they have to drop a whole bunch more money. This. 100% Not only new players, but returning payers as well. Especially those who spent a lot of money in the past and despite having a lot of models do not have viable theme lists to play. I don't think that the skill curve is such an issue as many people make it to be. Its the ££ cost associated to the way most people play WM/H, the rapidly rising costs of PP products and the ability to get hold of them in the first place (for UK, Europe and rest of the world).
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Post by The Snark Knight on Apr 27, 2018 12:55:25 GMT
When I got into Warmachine in 2012, it was pitched as being cheaper than 40k, because it required less models, and the models themselves were cheaper. However now the prices of some of the Warmachine stuff in the UK compared to GW products is pretty steep. And I appreciate that may be affected by the fact GW models are produced in the country I live in, and the Warmachine plastic and resin stuff is either shipped from US/China, but all the metal stuff is cast by Ceberus here in the UK to distribute to Europe. But here are a couple of example The recent trencher Longgunners cost £45 for 11 models, the new Age of Sigmar Namarti Reavers cost £30 per 10 models, and the Longgunners are cast her in the UK, its gets worse for resin models, the Trollkin Marauders for Cryx are £70 here in the UK, the Trencher Blockhouse is £48, for the price of a tiny, crappy bit of resin from PP, I could buy a Stormraven Gunship So it does look like GW stuff has gotten cheaper here in the states. I don't mind paying a little more per miniature for WMH since the scale is larger, but it looks like those Trencher Long Gunners are still about $10 more than a box of ten Space Marines. I don't know if scale creep is a thing in 40k, but my old Marines are pretty close to Trenchers or WGI in size. That's definitely something. I'm probably never gonna give my money to GW again, but new players aren't going to have the same issues with the company that I do.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 27, 2018 13:15:57 GMT
Always positive person: "Juggernauts are perfectly fine at 13 points" *Khador players explode in rage*
Always negative person: "Juggenauts were terrible and never played at 12 points. So now that they are 13 they are permanent shelf ornaments" *non-khador players explode in disbelief*
It's a matter of how many people are mad at one time. Perception is 75% of the equation and NO ONE has the exact same perspective.
Also, Ganso - That was a hell of a leap of logic. Reel it back. You're not that unreasonable a person... This is not the CID forum. It's not any mod's job to police negative opinions nor are they to be held to some unspoken expectation of positivity themselves.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Apr 27, 2018 16:35:34 GMT
Look man, I'm not here to tell you what your opinion should or shouldn't be, I just find it ironic that you seem to think your opinion comes from anywhere near an Objective point of view while it is quite clear the emotions behind them. Our difference of opinion comes from the fact that we perceive things differently. You say that Week 1 CID Caine_0 is proof of the developers incompetence, I think it's just an experiment that they want to be tested and it shouldn't be taken for more than that. You think that because they decided that Snipe on Trencher Journeyman was bad on Gravediggers, it is a sign that No Other Theme Army should have Snipe on a Stick. I think that even if they decided that Gravediggers shouldn't have Snipe on a Stick, trying to figure out if Heavy Metal or Sons of the Tempest should have Snipe is a valid thing to explore. You think I have nothing but positive things to say about PP. I know all my criticisms are being constructively channeled through the CID, or even discussed with them personally in Cons, LnL, etc. At this point all I can say to everyone is chill out, the sky is not falling, the game will survive, the game is fun and if you are lucky enough to have other players around you, you should totally be playing it. Also, Ganso - That was a hell of a leap of logic. Reel it back. You're not that unreasonable a person... This is not the CID forum. It's not any mod's job to police negative opinions nor are they to be held to some unspoken expectation of positivity themselves. Considered it Reeled, though in my defense, I was called out as a paragon of fanboyism, by Aegis no less, without even the courtesy of a @ before my name to let me know I was being discussed, before that my participation in the thread was merely a memetic response to Fanrsworth and an expression of agreement with OnComingStorm (someone who I have disagreed with in the past).
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Post by Aegis on Apr 27, 2018 19:05:11 GMT
Look man, I'm not here to tell you what your opinion should or shouldn't be, I just find it ironic that you seem to think your opinion comes from anywhere near an Objective point of view while it is quite clear the emotions behind them. Our difference of opinion comes from the fact that we perceive things differently. You say that Week 1 CID Caine_0 is proof of the developers incompetence, I think it's just an experiment that they want to be tested and it shouldn't be taken for more than that. You think that because they decided that Snipe on Trencher Journeyman was bad on Gravediggers, it is a sign that No Other Theme Army should have Snipe on a Stick. I think that even if they decided that Gravediggers shouldn't have Snipe on a Stick, trying to figure out if Heavy Metal or Sons of the Tempest should have Snipe is a valid thing to explore. You think I have nothing but positive things to say about PP. I know all my criticisms are being constructively channeled through the CID, or even discussed with them personally in Cons, LnL, etc. At this point all I can say to everyone is chill out, the sky is not falling, the game will survive, the game is fun and if you are lucky enough to have other players around you, you should totally be playing it. Also, Ganso - That was a hell of a leap of logic. Reel it back. You're not that unreasonable a person... This is not the CID forum. It's not any mod's job to police negative opinions nor are they to be held to some unspoken expectation of positivity themselves. Considered it Reeled, though in my defense, I was called out as a paragon of fanboyism, by Aegis no less, without even the courtesy of a @ before my name to let me know I was being discussed, before that my participation in the thread was merely a memetic response to Fanrsworth and an expression of agreement with OnComingStorm (someone who I have disagreed with in the past). I cited you since you were present in the topic, and quoted a post attacking me saying that you totally agreed, so it was obvious that you were reading this. And, in fact, you promptly replied. So don't try to make me figure as I was talking to your back. That said, my opinion can be wrong like everyone else, but the difference is that I have not taken a side, you have. I have never seen you saying that something devs did was wrong. You defended even the most clears errors with fervor, and as in this last post you have also defended them when they contraddict themselves (and no, if you say "this thing is bad for the game" and then you introduce it few month after something is wrong. Immunity feats were clearly identified by the devs themselvs as bad in general, not just in some particular lists, and they still introduced them again with Una2, defended it for months, and then changed idea and corrected it, even over-corrected maybe, another bad habit of them. This is not the kind of understanding of the game balance that I expect from professional developers). I may be totally wrong in my opinions, but I say that they do good things when I perceive that they do good things and I say that they do bad things when I perceive that they do bad things. I tend to not put much trust in the opinion of people that see things only in black and white and always stand by a particular side despite everything.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Apr 27, 2018 19:39:53 GMT
To be honest I think the biggest threat to Warmachine and Hordes is not that the game is becoming more/less balanced, it is that the barrier to entry is so high. Not only from a learning curve point of view (it's not so much a curve but a sheer cliff), but from a financial point of view, a new player has to drop a lot of money to get enough models to build a 75 point theme force, and those models then have no overlap with any other theme force almost, so if they want two lists that are different themes they have to drop a whole bunch more money. This. 100% Not only new players, but returning payers as well. Especially those who spent a lot of money in the past and despite having a lot of models do not have viable theme lists to play. I don't think that the skill curve is such an issue as many people make it to be. Its the ££ cost associated to the way most people play WM/H, the rapidly rising costs of PP products and the ability to get hold of them in the first place (for UK, Europe and rest of the world). This is my experience as well. Not only is it exceptionally difficult to get a new player to start WM/H, but keeping veterans going is getting harder and harder when those Vets play multiple systems. All of those systems vie for limited cash, and PP really starts to look like poor value for money when stacked up against their competitors. -und_ed
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Apr 27, 2018 19:47:21 GMT
Not only is it exceptionally difficult to get a new player to start WM/H, but keeping veterans going is getting harder and harder when those Vets play multiple systems. All of those systems vie for limited cash, and PP really starts to look like poor value for money when stacked up against their competitors. -und_ed I am also seeing this. Adding that 75 point steamrollers are much different than 50 point games or journeymen leagues or rumbles though I have never played that. I did play iron company once it also feels different somehow.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 27, 2018 20:03:17 GMT
Maybe for the sake of the game PP should pay less attention to competitive play, and give more attention to narrative play, change the game up a bit from all the precision and make it a bit more loose. Give More emphasis to narrative campaigns and scenarios.
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Miafan
Junior Strategist
Eater of Brains
Posts: 130
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Post by Miafan on Apr 27, 2018 20:14:02 GMT
Maybe for the sake of the game PP should pay less attention to competitive play, and give more attention to narrative play, change the game up a bit from all the precision and make it a bit more loose. Give More emphasis to narrative campaigns and scenarios. Take it for what it's worth, but there is a rumor that has been circulating arounf for the last month. A rumor that "PP" does not actually decide a zit anymore. Wyrd does, cos they bought em.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Apr 27, 2018 20:54:32 GMT
Maybe for the sake of the game PP should pay less attention to competitive play, and give more attention to narrative play, change the game up a bit from all the precision and make it a bit more loose. Give More emphasis to narrative campaigns and scenarios. That seems like a poor idea to me. PP's strength has always been (and imo still is) it's tight competitive focus. On Lore it's about even with most of the big guys out there, but if you're a lore-hound you probably want to play Malifaux On model sculpts, they're about even again although I think Wyrd is far in front of the pack On model quality, PP is lagging behind pretty badly. I just assembled Skarre3, and it feels like I've used 1/10th of it's weight in filler putty On pricing, PP is roughly twice as expensive as the big bad GeeDub on a model-by-model basis. That's inexcusable. The only thing PP leads the pack in is on it's competitive ruleset. Moving away from that would be shying away from its only real competitive advantage. -und_ed
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