Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 12, 2018 21:55:13 GMT
I tested him and he felt very strong and fun to play. Did you take advantage of the +4DEF skew that Ashen Veil plus Cloak of Ash creates against living models? Didn't have the opportunity in my game. I'm not saying he isn't viable, he just seems lower tier compared to the other CG casters. Almost like a less interesting King of Nothing. When your ARM19 Arc Node is DEF17 against your opponents warbeasts or infantry that are trying to kill it, it can be very cute. Likewise when they are trying to kill your DEF15/ARM18 Assault Troopers.
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Post by mrmayhem on Mar 13, 2018 0:25:38 GMT
SotN seems like a fine choice against them in general. I was wondering if folks will be slightly less inclined towards SotN, as having continuous immunity from the classic KSB Elder could become more relevant.
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Post by mrmayhem on Mar 13, 2018 0:26:15 GMT
Having just played against Lukas, their "weakest" caster, it is not looking good at all. Fire immunity, Grievous Wounds, and -2 ARM all over the place, full cloud walls available in every list, range 16 shots with Arcing Fire over unkillable screens... yet another faction that is excruciating to play against. Great. Fire immunity is for Horgle (and what else?). Most notably, shutting down Fire Eater sprays.
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Post by Trollock on Mar 13, 2018 6:56:12 GMT
SotN seems like a fine choice against them in general. I was wondering if folks will be slightly less inclined towards SotN, as having continuous immunity from the classic KSB Elder could become more relevant. Really doubt that. Our beasts will not care about contentious effects to any degree and our infantry are probably dead if they get hit by those sprays and wot not. NK elder is SUPER strong. Just the +1 SPD makes our infantry sing. +2 STR is just gravy
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bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
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Post by bluebeard on Mar 13, 2018 7:08:26 GMT
With the EBDT being immune to everything, wouldn't that be a great start to a battle group? And what are CG immunities? Is it just fire and corrosion? If so, I would say SoTN all day.
I did hear about a new gas thing though, basically rust but for living things and not constructs?
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Post by josephkerr on Mar 13, 2018 7:27:42 GMT
With the EBDT being immune to everything, wouldn't that be a great start to a battle group? And what are CG immunities? Is it just fire and corrosion? If so, I would say SoTN all day. I did hear about a new gas thing though, basically rust but for living things and not constructs? Its worth noting that by the time Crucible Guard drops we can expect some change to the Immunity rules, so the EBDT will be more likely to be shot up than it currently is. The 'Dragons Breath Rocket' is a 2 grunt weapons crew for 6 with a rng 14 pow 14 aoe 4 with "Withering Humor: Living and Undead models hit with this weapon suffer -2 ARM and lose Tough for one turn unless they can ignore gas effects."
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Post by Azuresun on Mar 13, 2018 8:52:17 GMT
I tested him and he felt meh to me. He really feels like he's missing something, and unreliable arc nodes aren't helpful. I tested him and he felt very strong and fun to play. Did you take advantage of the +4DEF skew that Ashen Veil plus Cloak of Ash creates against living models? They don't stack, Ashen Veil grants Cloak of Ash.
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Post by Trollock on Mar 13, 2018 9:50:36 GMT
I tested him and he felt very strong and fun to play. Did you take advantage of the +4DEF skew that Ashen Veil plus Cloak of Ash creates against living models? They don't stack, Ashen Veil grants Cloak of Ash. This is true, BUT Lukas actually has the spell "Burning Ash" (not "Cloak of Ash"). Both Ashen Veil and Burning Ash grants concealment against ranged/magic so that does not stack, BUT living models standing near a guys with Ashen Veil AND inside a cloud or Burning Ash will actually get -4 to hit. EDIT: Actually the statement was NOT true. Neither Ashen Veil or Burning Ash mentions "Cloak of Ash". " Ashen Veil - This model has concealment. Living enemy models without Immunity: Fire XICONX suffer –2 to attack rolls while within 2˝ of this model." "Burning Ash - Place a 3˝ AOE cloud effect anywhere completely within the spellcaster’s control range. While in the AOE, living enemy models without Immunity: Fire XICONX suffer –2 to attack rolls. The AOE remains in play for one round."
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Post by cayterpius on Mar 13, 2018 11:56:07 GMT
Is PP beginning to enter GW territory where everything new is completely OP compared to everything old and with 1-2 years between faction updates people (especially competitive tournament goers) will simply begin chasing the latest codex... ahem... faction?
Our input and CID is supposed to help retain some sort of healthy bell curve of power across models and factions, isn't it?
For just one example, I see the recent change to immunities as "oh no, my shiny new faction will not be as super powerful on the table as I want it to be because some factions might be able to mitigate some of my abilities some of the time! ... we'd better nerf everyone else or i will be super sad".
That's not just lazy design or over zealous defense of a staffers brain child, it's actually a detriment to the game if that's the way everything's heading.
Am I the only one worried?
Example 2:
The 'Dragons Breath Rocket' is a 2 grunt weapons crew for 6 with a rng 14 pow 14 aoe 4 with "Withering Humor: Living and Undead models hit with this weapon suffer -2 ARM and lose Tough for one turn unless they can ignore gas effects.
Looks at Troll artillery. Checks stats. Checks points. Cries.
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Post by Trollock on Mar 13, 2018 12:34:36 GMT
Is PP beginning to enter GW territory where everything new is completely OP compared to everything old and with 1-2 years between faction updates people (especially competitive tournament goers) will simply begin chasing the latest codex... ahem... faction? Our input and CID is supposed to help retain some sort of healthy bell curve of power across models and factions, isn't it? For just one example, I see the recent change to immunities as "oh no, my shiny new faction will not be as super powerful on the table as I want it to be because some factions might be able to mitigate some of my abilities some of the time! ... we'd better nerf everyone else or i will be super sad". That's not just lazy design or over zealous defense of a staffers brain child, it's actually a detriment to the game if that's the way everything's heading. Am I the only one worried? Example 2: The 'Dragons Breath Rocket' is a 2 grunt weapons crew for 6 with a rng 14 pow 14 aoe 4 with "Withering Humor: Living and Undead models hit with this weapon suffer -2 ARM and lose Tough for one turn unless they can ignore gas effects. Looks at Troll artillery. Checks stats. Checks points. Cries. I dont think CG is OP over all. The immunities thing is a bigger nerf to CG than to trolls probably. Everything in CG is immune to fire and corrosion, so nerfing immunities will be bad for them. Most shooty things even have lots of different elemental types to chose from, so CG could have gone around the immunities of their targets better than most. Legion lists up against fire immune stuff would have had a way worse time than CG would, just as an example. The Dragons Breath Rocket is unarguably better than our artillery. But the faction is also built around that piece, much like trolls are built around having the kriel stone. I think the comparison says at least as much about our artillery (who are unquestionably bad) as it does about CG. If you for example compare Assault Troopers to Champions, i think Champions are better. They punch WAY harder for a similar cost. The resilience to shooting is probably very similar thanks to sanguine bond, and their resilience to melee is way better thanks to higher DEF and ARM. Comparing individual pieces across factions are never a good idea though. I do not think that a CG army will be as scary to face as a cryx army. Turns out that basically ALL armies you face feel unfair and broken in some way, because that is how WMH works. Everything is broken, so by comparison, nothing is broken CG will simply be a new type of list you have to prepare for. If the (still not finished) GC models that are overtly strong seem stronger than the (also not CID approved) trollblood models that are overtly bad, that does not mean that we are going in the GW direction of power creep. New models SHOULD be better than the obviously bad old ones. The problem lies with the bad models. Now models should NOT be strictly better than the current models that are strong, and i think that they currently are not. We live in a meta with Nemo 3 and other really strong lists. CG will not be stomping all over those guys. They might stomp on some of the old stuff that is bad, but that is fine. So far, everything that has come out from CID has been very well balanced. The battle engines went from trash to totally playable, but the TEP who was already really good, was not buffed. Then we had all the Trencher stuff. Trenchers are really strong, but not strictly better than everything else in cygnar. You often see one trencher list in a cygnar pair, but rarely two. Perfect! SotN and the changes to some of our legacy models also turned out great. Has SotN replaced all troll lists? NO! we often bring one SotN, but the other list is usually one of the other themes. BoH was "unplayable" pre CID, and now it is back in force. Cryx CID gave them two new interesting themes. It also reined in Ghost fleet and Denny 1, and now the internal (and external) balance in cryx is way better. It is not perfect yet, but it never will be. You see a whole lot more list variety nowadays though, right? Legion and MoW CID has not been finalized yet, but the things we saw in CID were good but not over the top. I feel confident that both Ogrun and MoW will soon be a regular part of a Khador list pair, but by no means mandatory. Grymkin has turned out to be really strong, and that is most likely due to the nature of arcana. It is a new mechanic that one needs to grow accustomed to. Many top players were drawn to the faction due to this, but i think many will return to their old factions in time as players learn to play in to GK. I for one STILL havent played against them. To me this indicates that the average player is probably less used to GK than they need to be to play in to them confidently. Anyway, CID has been very successful in creating strong but not overly strong models/themes so far. Why should we fear that CG will be different? If you find some choices overly strong now, it is most likely much like the situation with suppression tankers week 1, or the first iteration of the new Mulg. They start out aggressively, and then rein in the OP stuff to a more suitable level.
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Post by cayterpius on Mar 13, 2018 12:39:18 GMT
Trollock says lots of well reasoned and thoughtful things.
I tip my hat in thanks and crawl back under my rock for another season.
:-D
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 13, 2018 14:14:31 GMT
I tested him and he felt very strong and fun to play. Did you take advantage of the +4DEF skew that Ashen Veil plus Cloak of Ash creates against living models? They don't stack, Ashen Veil grants Cloak of Ash. Yea, sorry, didn't have the pdf in front of me, so the names were off, but Ashen Veil and Lukas's spell do stack. Ashen Veil and Burning Ash. If a model is affected by both, that model suffers -4 to attack rolls.
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Mar 13, 2018 16:51:06 GMT
To me, Grymkin are much harder to deal with because their "schtick" is just so much different than any other armies. They make you think in a completely different way and it messes with you if you haven't seen it before.
CG seem interesting but at the end of the day they do lots of debuffs just like Cryx and Menoth so I think playing them won't be as bad. I didn't see anything that struck me as broken, I feel like I'm always playing without tough and at -2 armor anyway! lol
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Post by trollsareblue on Mar 13, 2018 19:36:43 GMT
Trollock is dead on. GW levels of power creep mean invalidating, or completely removing, old models in favor of new ones. They rarely bother to shine up the stuff that sits on shelves, unless it got a resculpt.
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mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
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Post by mattmcd on Mar 14, 2018 13:03:37 GMT
Trollock says lots of well reasoned and thoughtful things. I tip my hat in thanks and crawl back under my rock for another season. :-D Liked for the Trollock comment, not the crawling under a rock comment. Lol
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