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Post by Trollock on Mar 5, 2018 7:50:43 GMT
I want to add in here, Pummler crews are super legit. You can reliably hunt backline models and solos with the AOE’s and they eat infantry that is Arm 16 or less. Kriel company eats infantry lists. It just struggles into any dedicated armor or shooting denial. To kill infantry, you needs to hit them with the blasts. How often have you hit more than 3? And if they are that ARM 15-16 you should only kill ~2 of those 3. Hitting support stuff in the back line is superb, especially single wound support like choir (though you simply CANT play KC in to menoth...). Against support solos you MIGHT kill one, but at ARM 12 and 5 boxes you only have a 58% chance of killing one IF you hit it. Compared to something like a Legion Death Stalker, the Pummeler seems pretty bad at killing stuff and pretty easy to murder
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 5, 2018 14:28:52 GMT
I want to add in here, Pummler crews are super legit. You can reliably hunt backline models and solos with the AOE’s and they eat infantry that is Arm 16 or less. Kriel company eats infantry lists. It just struggles into any dedicated armor or shooting denial. To kill infantry, you needs to hit them with the blasts. How often have you hit more than 3? And if they are that ARM 15-16 you should only kill ~2 of those 3. Hitting support stuff in the back line is superb, especially single wound support like choir (though you simply CANT play KC in to menoth...). Against support solos you MIGHT kill one, but at ARM 12 and 5 boxes you only have a 58% chance of killing one IF you hit it. Compared to something like a Legion Death Stalker, the Pummeler seems pretty bad at killing stuff and pretty easy to murder You really underestimate the bounce. Even spread infantry your likely to hit 3-5 models depending on the angle. Blast immune stuff will suck but that’s what’s happens when your factions ranged infantry removal tech is all super straightforward (aka sprays and AoE’s) but for a 5 Point/free infantry killer I think it does it’s job fine. It has always earned its points back in my experiences with it.
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Post by Trollock on Mar 5, 2018 14:31:05 GMT
To kill infantry, you needs to hit them with the blasts. How often have you hit more than 3? And if they are that ARM 15-16 you should only kill ~2 of those 3. Hitting support stuff in the back line is superb, especially single wound support like choir (though you simply CANT play KC in to menoth...). Against support solos you MIGHT kill one, but at ARM 12 and 5 boxes you only have a 58% chance of killing one IF you hit it. Compared to something like a Legion Death Stalker, the Pummeler seems pretty bad at killing stuff and pretty easy to murder You really underestimate the bounce. Even spread infantry your likely to hit 3-5 models depending on the angle. Blast immune stuff will suck but that’s what’s happens when your factions ranged infantry removal tech is all super straightforward (aka sprays and AoE’s) but for a 5 Point/free infantry killer I think it does it’s job fine. It has always earned its points back in my experiences with it. Havent played it more than a few times, so you may be right. Its 6 points though
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 5, 2018 14:31:44 GMT
Oops. It’s always taken for free so I never notice the extra point
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Post by Trollock on Mar 5, 2018 14:52:59 GMT
Oops. It’s always taken for free so I never notice the extra point I usually say that the Pummeler is an excellent 4 point weapon crew that unfortunately costs 6 points
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 5, 2018 15:23:43 GMT
Oops. It’s always taken for free so I never notice the extra point I usually say that the Pummeler is an excellent 4 point weapon crew that unfortunately costs 6 points That's fair, I would say its actually worth it at 5 points if you are not taking it for free. But at least its more usable than the thumper
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Mar 5, 2018 16:23:26 GMT
I want to add in here, Pummler crews are super legit. You can reliably hunt backline models and solos with the AOE’s and they eat infantry that is Arm 16 or less. Kriel company eats infantry lists. It just struggles into any dedicated armor or shooting denial. To kill infantry, you needs to hit them with the blasts. How often have you hit more than 3? And if they are that ARM 15-16 you should only kill ~2 of those 3. Hitting support stuff in the back line is superb, especially single wound support like choir (though you simply CANT play KC in to menoth...). Against support solos you MIGHT kill one, but at ARM 12 and 5 boxes you only have a 58% chance of killing one IF you hit it. Compared to something like a Legion Death Stalker, the Pummeler seems pretty bad at killing stuff and pretty easy to murder :( Compared to something like a broken down bread truck, the Pummeler seems clumsy and slow.
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Mar 5, 2018 16:56:49 GMT
I think that KC struggles for trolls more from perception than anything. It just doesn't feel right to not be able to crack armor as trolls. It's not perception that most of our beasts are P+S15-16 and will struggle to put another heavy down. (There are now two? notable exceptions: Brawler and Mulg, neither of which are available in KC) While I don't believe we need to be able to drop a ton of heavies, being able to do something against 1-2 seems like a reasonable thing to ask. A caster with a damage boost can help with this, but otherwise it puts the list at a very bad disadvantage. Further, locally we don't usually pull out two lists, so I like to do things that are pretty general in their nature, which means being able to drop that 1-2 heavies. With a tournament you can mitigate that problem at bit further, but I think it's still an issue. Finally, I must admit to feeling a bit disappointed in mkII because of the changes to the two lights: Pyre/Slag AND the drop in fury on a number of our beasts. Unlike a number of other factions, I really feel like our beasts are built around the idea that they will be getting some sort of boost. I'm fine with PP changing the way this works, not so fine with them not also bumping up the P+S of the beasts while they were doing it. My point wasn't that I thought KC could crack armor, it was that we don't always need to build lists to do it but since that is what trolls do, we seem to have problems pursuing those list building angles. Plus I'm pretty sure that 1-2 heavies that are arm 20 or lower can be handled between a bomber, 1/2 slags, the WW, 1/2 thumpers and the caster. And if they are more than that, unless they are playing Karchev, I probably will get some angles for the assassination unless they are hiding their caster way out of play. At the end of the day, I still don't know if its viable. I've had limited success but haven't really played too many tournament caliber lists. I was just trying to make a point that maybe we haven't put the effort into vetting out KC because they other themes just blow it away on paper.
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Mar 6, 2018 16:25:44 GMT
Have you tried any Kings? All these problems seem to come back to the list having no spine, maybe an MK or GK would help it out.
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Post by Trollock on Mar 7, 2018 7:33:57 GMT
Have you tried any Kings? All these problems seem to come back to the list having no spine, maybe an MK or GK would help it out. I think every one who has give KC the time of day has tried this. I personally was not impressed by it. Adding a MK (Rage) to the list means you have one piece that hits hard. However, the "miracle" of Rage is that it can allow your beasts that normally do NOT punch so hard to one round a heavy all of a sudden. A Bomber can basically scrap a Khador heavy in melee with Rage and Stone Strength. So you want Rage to have access to multiple beasts that can do work in melee. However, now you are bringing a bomber or two and you start losing out on your free points. You find yourself thinking "why am i not building this list in PoD instead"? and things devolve from there... The options of playing either a King and nothing else, or a King + Pyre (to light up your FEs and still having 60 points of infantry) are the ways i end up building lists. Neither feels super good for me. if you play a MK, he can punch really hard, sure, but you probably have no threat range extension for him. If you do the King + light option, you have two beasts (sort of needed for transfers and fury generation) and then you have to bend over backwards to get at least 60 points of infantry stuff in the list. The points just never seem to work out well for me. I always end up with 54 points of infantry and ill be in my cold cold grave before i pay 6 points for a pummeler I guess the reason why i started this whining was that i DO put a lot of effort in to building lists i want to play with KC, but when ever i try, i end up wanting to pull my hair out. That literally never happens with any other theme. There are lots of cool options in KC, but i simply can not get them to mesh in list construction and that is super frustrating
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Mar 7, 2018 14:22:17 GMT
Have you tried any Kings? All these problems seem to come back to the list having no spine, maybe an MK or GK would help it out. I think every one who has give KC the time of day has tried this. I personally was not impressed by it. Adding a MK (Rage) to the list means you have one piece that hits hard. However, the "miracle" of Rage is that it can allow your beasts that normally do NOT punch so hard to one round a heavy all of a sudden. A Bomber can basically scrap a Khador heavy in melee with Rage and Stone Strength. So you want Rage to have access to multiple beasts that can do work in melee. However, now you are bringing a bomber or two and you start losing out on your free points. You find yourself thinking "why am i not building this list in PoD instead"? and things devolve from there... The options of playing either a King and nothing else, or a King + Pyre (to light up your FEs and still having 60 points of infantry) are the ways i end up building lists. Neither feels super good for me. if you play a MK, he can punch really hard, sure, but you probably have no threat range extension for him. If you do the King + light option, you have two beasts (sort of needed for transfers and fury generation) and then you have to bend over backwards to get at least 60 points of infantry stuff in the list. The points just never seem to work out well for me. I always end up with 54 points of infantry and ill be in my cold cold grave before i pay 6 points for a pummeler I guess the reason why i started this whining was that i DO put a lot of effort in to building lists i want to play with KC, but when ever i try, i end up wanting to pull my hair out. That literally never happens with any other theme. There are lots of cool options in KC, but i simply can not get them to mesh in list construction and that is super frustrating I agree with all of this except the part about 60 points. I've said before that to insist on always getting 3 freebies in any theme is a trap. There is probably no better example of that than Kriel Company, where the options for freebies are paltry. Both weapon crews suck. They are SO SLOW that it doesn't matter what else they do because they will rarely get into the fight in time to be worthwhile. Braylen is only worth it if you already have Highwaymen and the Raiders outclass them. Two freebies would get you a Runebearer and a Fell Caller, which are the only real options available. Anything beyond that is not worth straining for. If a Pummeler is not worth 6 points, then it's not worth ruining your list either. Face it, you're not playing KC to get a free Pummeler, you're playing it for +1 to go first and War Wagons. And "Tactician for shooting" is nice too, sure.
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Post by robbleyourworld on Mar 7, 2018 14:40:33 GMT
I think every one who has give KC the time of day has tried this. I personally was not impressed by it. Adding a MK (Rage) to the list means you have one piece that hits hard. However, the "miracle" of Rage is that it can allow your beasts that normally do NOT punch so hard to one round a heavy all of a sudden. A Bomber can basically scrap a Khador heavy in melee with Rage and Stone Strength. So you want Rage to have access to multiple beasts that can do work in melee. However, now you are bringing a bomber or two and you start losing out on your free points. You find yourself thinking "why am i not building this list in PoD instead"? and things devolve from there... The options of playing either a King and nothing else, or a King + Pyre (to light up your FEs and still having 60 points of infantry) are the ways i end up building lists. Neither feels super good for me. if you play a MK, he can punch really hard, sure, but you probably have no threat range extension for him. If you do the King + light option, you have two beasts (sort of needed for transfers and fury generation) and then you have to bend over backwards to get at least 60 points of infantry stuff in the list. The points just never seem to work out well for me. I always end up with 54 points of infantry and ill be in my cold cold grave before i pay 6 points for a pummeler I guess the reason why i started this whining was that i DO put a lot of effort in to building lists i want to play with KC, but when ever i try, i end up wanting to pull my hair out. That literally never happens with any other theme. There are lots of cool options in KC, but i simply can not get them to mesh in list construction and that is super frustrating I agree with all of this except the part about 60 points. I've said before that to insist on always getting 3 freebies in any theme is a trap. There is probably no better example of that than Kriel Company, where the options for freebies are paltry. Both weapon crews suck. They are SO SLOW that it doesn't matter what else they do because they will rarely get into the fight in time to be worthwhile. Braylen is only worth it if you already have Highwaymen and the Raiders outclass them. Two freebies would get you a Runebearer and a Fell Caller, which are the only real options available. Anything beyond that is not worth straining for. If a Pummeler is not worth 6 points, then it's not worth ruining your list either. Face it, you're not playing KC to get a free Pummeler, you're playing it for +1 to go first and War Wagons. And "Tactician for shooting" is nice too, sure. I may disagree on some your points about Braylen and the pummeler I completely agree that trying to get 3 solos in KC is a bit of a trap. If you build the list you want and get 3 free solos all the better but in many situations, particularly when building KC lists, those 20 points are better spent elsewhere like on having a battle group worth mentioning or even merc/minion options.
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