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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Feb 15, 2018 14:49:31 GMT
The CID left some of us dissatisfied, but parts of it have reïnvigorated my own interest in playing with one of my favourite models, eThags. This is partly because of his increased stats and in part because of our new characterbeast. Lightening strike allows him to do what we allways wanted the feat to do; partly anyway, but it's the most important part. I know nothing is final yet, but it's fun to listbuild, whatever the status of the rules. Also know that Im still a noob at this game so the below is all in my head and I don't know if there's any virtue too it Pairing him with Golab of course means running him in primal terrors which doesn't seem like the obvious choice given MD and the feat, but I think Terrors offers him some things he does like over Oracles and the theme certainly likes him. Primarily Chosen and the hellmouth are a good fit with him and visa versa; to a lesser extent warmongers but of course Gorag is welcome with everybody. All of these choices like Dragon's Blood, eThags likes the big bases of the chosen to block los and my first idea was to give him a unit of those and get a freebee from that, probably a hellmouth. This begs the question whether to completely brick up or not, which means a Blightbringer and a Carni and 13 points to spare. He loves spellmartyrs, probably wants a lesser right off the bat and shepherds are allways good so I was thinking 2martyr, 2shepherds, harrier and the remaining points for either a naga, second hellmouth or bumping Carni to Typhon (probably the extra hellmouth). Really straightforward list, and with the +2 deployment it's pretty fast. I like how he has something to offer to everyone and that everything in the list makes Thagrosh tick better. There's a weakness in that but it also makes it less obvious for an opponent to decide which model to go after first? How agressive it (and above all thagrosh himself) can play remains to be seen. --- The list doesn't make optimal use of the feat, MD and freebees but I feel it does get returns in other ways. If you wouldn't do this (ie use BB), but do want to pair eThags with Golab, what would you do? Maybe go with warmongers and double hellmouths for a free Gorag, Angelius, double neraph and serpah for movement shenanigans? It would make for a very manouvreable list that will hit well enough under MD and can can set up unexpected second alphas. --- Curious to find out how any of this will play out, need to be tweaked and if Golab is as pivotal as I think he is... that is if all remains as is of course
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Post by apoc2148 on Feb 15, 2018 15:17:41 GMT
Golab is really going to be an interesting piece to play with and was one of the models that I was really excited to see once the CID dropped. Lightning strike is gold, and pair Golab with a deathstalker and you're guaranteed to always have finisher going on whatever Golab goes into. OT: eThags could do ok with a blightbrings, he likes the extra str/arm, lowering def and removing tough. And once the blightbringer finally makes it to the front lines, its 3 attacks will benefit from MD nicely. It will still get the extra attack from the feat but won't be able to move, but that's probably ok. eThags likes having the cav bases to hide behind. I've ran him before with a unit of raptors (14/17 w/ his buff makes them scary) with decent success, so the Chosen should be even better with him. PT could be interesting with him leading the way. A unit of chosen nets you a free hellmouth which is always nice. This would be a decent start for a list if everything remains unchanged from the end of the CID.: conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0_aDkDkLkKfTLegion Army - 44 / 75 points [Theme] Primal Terrors (CID) !!! Your army must contain at least 95 total points. !!! Your army contains CID entries. !!! You are using a pre-release theme. (Thagrosh 2) Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25] - Blightbringer [32] - Golab [17] Chosen of Everblight (max) [20] Hellmouth [0(6)] You've still got 31 points to play with in the end, but could be a solid core for a eThag PT list. I'd probably add a couple more beats and maybe some forsaken, maybe a spell martyr. Once the rules drop I'm going to get a couple games in with eThag in PT.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Feb 16, 2018 0:17:51 GMT
Thags2 going from Oracles to PT is losing free support solos, access to the throne abd access to ice witches. In exchange he gets access to chosen, access to golab, and a free hellmouth. Everything else can be exactly the same.
Personally PT doesn't seem as good for thags2. You're trading a lot of tactical variety and strength for some niche advantages that will likely as not force you into very linear and predictable game plan.
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on Feb 16, 2018 9:13:28 GMT
I played something simmilar during first week of the CID conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0_aDkIkLaMkOaOcocofFb9kKfTLegion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Primal Terrors (CID) !!! Your army contains CID entries. !!! You are using a pre-release theme. (Thagrosh 2) Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25] - Carnivean [18] - Golab [17] - Raek [8] - Scythean [16] - Seraph [14] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] Swamp Gobber Chef [1] The Forsaken [4] Chosen of Everblight (max) [20] Hellmouth [0(6)] It was fun to play and even working a bit. But it's hard to say after 1 battle. And it was played with initial rules. Currenlty I will probably try to add some lessers. I'm not sure if the Blightbringer version is better but it's worth to try. I will start with Twins Golab, Blightringer and Chosen for sure
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Hjard
Junior Strategist
Posts: 123
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Post by Hjard on Feb 16, 2018 9:41:56 GMT
Played the list below because I wanted a PS 20 Warlock and the game wasn't really earnest (opponent still brought his usual tournament list). Result? As dumb as it sounds, but it worked quite well. Thagrosh with Hyper Regen and in Dragons Breath is close to unkillable, even though I screwed up and got a fully loaded Phoenix to the face. In my turn, Thagrosh killed the Phoenix. +2" of deployment solves one of Thags big problems: The list is usually slow as Firetruck as long as you don't pay for a Seraph and you don't want to pay for a Seraph because he get's less from Thags than the damn Blighbringer does (turns out MD on 8 melee attacks is "kinda" neat). So as long as you don't mind that your gameplan boils down to "run at them and punch them in the face REALLY hard" trade the Afflictor and Totem Hunter (my "I want to play them" picks) for a Neraph / Raek+Forsaken and laugh while killing heavys with your warlock. conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0-aDctfuaR4nbcb8csfTLegion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Primal Terrors (Thagrosh 2) Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25] - Afflictor [6] - Blightbringer [38] - Typhon [24] Totem Hunter [6] Warmonger War Chief [0(6)] Blighted Ogrun Warspears (max) [15] - Warspear Chieftan [5] Hellmouth [6] When the new stuff comes down the list just get's better. Dumb, but fun. conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0_aDkDeJaRkBfFkQkKfT2NLegion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Primal Terrors (CID) !!! Your army contains CID entries. !!! You are using a pre-release theme. (Thagrosh 2) Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25] - Blightbringer [32] - Neraph [12] - Typhon [24] - Ammok the Truthbearer [4] Swamp Gobber Chef [1] Warmonger War Chief [5] Chosen of Everblight (max) [20] Hellmouth [0(6)] Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2]
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Post by neutralyze on Feb 16, 2018 14:23:20 GMT
Thags2 in primal Terrors is okay. It get the chosen which help screen and control zones at armor 19, you get access to golab which is very powerful. You get two hellmouths if needed for more zone control and for cloud wall on the approach. I played two games yesterday with the following list.
Thags2 Canivean Golab Scythean Seraph Shredder Chosen full Hellmouth x 2 Ammok
Pretty effective and a different feel for Thags2. Gobber chef
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Feb 16, 2018 18:26:04 GMT
So what are all your experiences with lightening strike on thagrosh? That to me is the main attraction for running him in terrors, because I think that alone will allow him to play much more aggressive than before. Haven't tried it though.
I also think the hellmouths (one of which is easily free, probably not two) are just a lot more valuable to him than the free solos oracles can give, as is the +2" deployment. Loading up on beasts in oracles is nice but... I don't think the three freebees are all thát usefull in a list like that, and personally Id want more units and end up with two free solos anyway. At that point terrors seems more attractive for frontline casters, which is what Id like eThags to be able to do.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Feb 16, 2018 18:44:30 GMT
The problem with lightning strike (and by extension the blightbringer as well) is that thagrosh2 generally wants to actually use his beasts, and possibly place them in harms way to make strong pushes that you then use the feat either to recover from or flank or push harder with. If you take Golab to buff thagrosh2, then you risk losing that buff as soon as you try to use it as a beast. I'm waiting for the conclusion of our CID rules before I play with it myself, but it looks like a lot of power being lost in the attempt. Thagrosh2 would have to personally one-round at least 1 heavy every game to make up for what it's costing you, and you'd be relying on whatever unit you took (chosen most likely) to do most of your anti-infantry heavy lifting essentially without support. I wonder if the PT approach of list wouldn't just be better with Thagrosh1? He hits just as hard after Draconic Blessing at the same fury since he'll lightning strike for free, and can use Golab more aggressively since he can bring it back. You lose out on 1 speed in terms of his personal threat, but he'll carry the infantry far better than Thagrosh2 generally could. edit: The 'standard' PT brick of Blightbringer + x2 chosen + x2 hellmouths. With thagrosh1 that leaves you exactly enough points for a seraph and golab. So you're essentially playing the 'normal' PT list, but with the addition that your warlock is potentially one-rounding heavies and getting away with it when you need him to be. Also, unlike Thagrosh2, Thagrosh1 can justify both a blightbringer and golab without expecting it to seriously cripple his list. The opportunity cost to get those benefits is way lower, so you are in a situation where you can be using the list normally (IE not keeping Draconic Blessing for thagrosh1 personally) and STILL have the advantage of a sprinting PS18 warlock with 7 attacks on the chage. conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0_aCkDkLaOkKkKfTfTLegion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Primal Terrors (CID) (Thagrosh 1) Thagrosh, Prophet of Everblight [+28] - Blightbringer [32] - Golab [17] - Seraph [14] Chosen of Everblight (max) [20] Chosen of Everblight (max) [20] Hellmouth [0(6)] Hellmouth [0(6)]
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Feb 16, 2018 19:05:35 GMT
The problem with lightning strike (and by extension the blightbringer as well) is that thagrosh2 generally wants to actually use his beasts, and possibly place them in harms way to make strong pushes that you then use the feat either to recover from or flank or push harder with. If you take Golab to buff thagrosh2, then you risk losing that buff as soon as you try to use it as a beast. I'm waiting for the conclusion of our CID rules before I play with it myself, but it looks like a lot of power being lost in the attempt. Thagrosh2 would have to personally one-round at least 1 heavy every game to make up for what it's costing you, and you'd be relying on whatever unit you took (chosen most likely) to do most of your anti-infantry heavy lifting essentially without support. [snip] I might be crazy but you can lightning strike of a kill with Thagrosh's spray. That kind of movement could give him quite the scenario presence or a good walk out of danger. [Edit] I am crazy. Sprint specifies melee attack. Went and read the stalker's card. my bad... Also, I don't think you would be loosing Golab all that easily. With lightning strike and the feat move he can travel 14" wherever he wants. If that can't keep the bird safe for more than one major engagement I don't know what will. Now, that does not mean I would immediately jump head first into PT with him. I'm still an out-of-theme camper and I can see plenty of use in doing so. I just don't think you are sacrificing anything by bringing Golab. Thagrosh can easily fill an anti-infantry role if you really want him to. I would prioritize Gorag and a min unit of warmongers over Chosen for that reason as well. -2 def is LOS based so if Gorag can be seen by the spray targets Thagrosh is not likely to miss much. But that is heavily dependent on him keeping paralyzing gaze.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Feb 16, 2018 20:11:18 GMT
The problem with lightning strike (and by extension the blightbringer as well) is that thagrosh2 generally wants to actually use his beasts, and possibly place them in harms way to make strong pushes that you then use the feat either to recover from or flank or push harder with. If you take Golab to buff thagrosh2, then you risk losing that buff as soon as you try to use it as a beast. I'm waiting for the conclusion of our CID rules before I play with it myself, but it looks like a lot of power being lost in the attempt. Thagrosh2 would have to personally one-round at least 1 heavy every game to make up for what it's costing you, and you'd be relying on whatever unit you took (chosen most likely) to do most of your anti-infantry heavy lifting essentially without support. [snip] I might be crazy but you can lightning strike of a kill with Thagrosh's spray. That kind of movement could give him quite the scenario presence or a good walk out of danger. [Edit] I am crazy. Sprint specifies melee attack. Went and read the stalker's card. my bad... Also, I don't think you would be loosing Golab all that easily. With lightning strike and the feat move he can travel 14" wherever he wants. If that can't keep the bird safe for more than one major engagement I don't know what will. Now, that does not mean I would immediately jump head first into PT with him. I'm still an out-of-theme camper and I can see plenty of use in doing so. I just don't think you are sacrificing anything by bringing Golab. Thagrosh can easily fill an anti-infantry role if you really want him to. I would prioritize Gorag and a min unit of warmongers over Chosen for that reason as well. -2 def is LOS based so if Gorag can be seen by the spray targets Thagrosh is not likely to miss much. But that is heavily dependent on him keeping paralyzing gaze. I made a big post about this but I lost it so here's the short version -If you just barely fail to kill the target, sprint is useless. -thagrosh2 does not do anti-infantry well without enormous risk. -warmongers+gorag won't get you free anything. You might as well be out of theme at that point if that's all you're taking.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Feb 16, 2018 20:50:46 GMT
I'm a fan of playing out of theme or just odd ways to utilize things in odd ways. I have an all beast list in PT for Vayl 2. Strictly for the deployment bonus. Not everything has to be 100% perfect and optimized. It just has to work.
As for sprint, we've had it on Neraphs. Even excluding Fyanna 2 most are used to dedicating something to the target before the sprint model goes in. Especially considering Golab wants finisher triggered before he gets there.
But I understand the sentiment.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
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Post by Lanz on Feb 16, 2018 21:10:10 GMT
I'm a fan of playing out of theme or just odd ways to utilize things in odd ways. I have an all beast list in PT for Vayl 2. Strictly for the deployment bonus. Not everything has to be 100% perfect and optimized. It just has to work. As for sprint, we've had it on Neraphs. Even excluding Fyanna 2 most are used to dedicating something to the target before the sprint model goes in. Especially considering Golab wants finisher triggered before he gets there. But I understand the sentiment. In the aforementioned lost post I talked about the neraph a bit. The thing is that the Neraph is cheap and disposable in all the ways Golab is not. You can afford to not have it do a lot of heavy lifting.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Feb 16, 2018 21:14:20 GMT
The problem with lightning strike (and by extension the blightbringer as well) is that thagrosh2 generally wants to actually use his beasts, and possibly place them in harms way to make strong pushes that you then use the feat either to recover from or flank or push harder with. If you take Golab to buff thagrosh2, then you risk losing that buff as soon as you try to use it as a beast. My train of thought was that eThags can push and recover along with the battlegroup thanks to sprint, Golab wouldn't be sacrificed. BB and/or chosen probably will be, but if thagrosh and the chosen did their jobs during that featturn it should be ok. But even if golab did perish immediatly after getting that one important sprint off, does it matter? How often does thagrosh want to sprint?
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Feb 16, 2018 22:22:54 GMT
The problem with lightning strike (and by extension the blightbringer as well) is that thagrosh2 generally wants to actually use his beasts, and possibly place them in harms way to make strong pushes that you then use the feat either to recover from or flank or push harder with. If you take Golab to buff thagrosh2, then you risk losing that buff as soon as you try to use it as a beast. My train of thought was that eThags can push and recover along with the battlegroup thanks to sprint, Golab wouldn't be sacrificed. BB and/or chosen probably will be, but if thagrosh and the chosen did their jobs during that featturn it should be ok. But even if golab did perish immediatly after getting that one important sprint off, does it matter? How often does thagrosh want to sprint? What battlegroup? If you're taking a BB, golab, a Seraph, and some 20 point of unit to get a free hellmouth, you have 17 points left. Do you see Thagrosh2, a BB, Golab, a single unit, and a single other heavy carrying a 75 point list? Moreover, even if you get all that, what did you accomplish unless your opponent left 2 big heavies close to eachother so thagrosh2 could kill both? If he's just killing one heavy, it doesn't seem worth it. I'm not saying any of this isn't doable, but the cost to get these advantages seems disproportionate for what you get, and go at odds with Thagrosh2's strengths.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Feb 16, 2018 23:06:34 GMT
I wouldn't bring a seraph, but carni, typhon or two neraphs. I think he's too starved for points in Terrors to afford a seraph.
Even if he brings down just the one heavy that's probably more than he could safely do without sprint, unless your opponent fed you one.
Note that I did say I don't know if anything of this is feasible, Im just excited to try it out and speculate a bit. It's also the only thing Im excited about since our CID, xept for running a similar setup with the Twins or Rhyas.
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