Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Feb 16, 2018 23:13:04 GMT
I wouldn't bring a seraph, but carni, typhon or two neraphs. I think he's too starved for points in Terrors to afford a seraph. Yeah, I would never even consider Golab over a seraph if it came down to that. I'd sooner cut out the blightbringer than a seraph with Thagrosh2. I don't see sprint on thagrosh2 being worth losing slipstream for your whole list. Thagrosh2's personal threat range is also only 11" without slipstream, which is a very predictable and avoidable threat range that you'll have no tools to interact with.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Feb 18, 2018 12:43:01 GMT
But if his increased durability allows him to play more aggressively forward, does it matter he has 1" less from before?
If it does I agree it's probably best to drop BB and rethink the chosen. Which is a problem because warmongers sit at a very awkward pointvalue for the full unit.
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Post by copperflame on Feb 19, 2018 14:34:48 GMT
Yea, with some theory lists while waiting on the CID changes - the point value of Warmongers (with and without CA) puts you in a weird spot when Chosen and/or Spears+UA nets you a Hellmouth.
I've tried monkeying with Thag2 in PT. I've seemed to lean towards 2 Ravagores within his battle group to empower Rottwings who are the little filler to get the second hellmouth. I still think the battlegroup is a little skinny or have concerns that the ravagores won't clear enough infantry to make room for the big boys to play (I run into this with my ranged Abby2 list at times).
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Hjard
Junior Strategist
Posts: 123
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Post by Hjard on Feb 19, 2018 16:53:27 GMT
Remember that solos will also count towards the 20points and running Amok doesn't sound that bad, as this kind of Thags list has exactly zero magical weapons, could use a flag solo and whatever else Amok brings isn't that bad either for Thags. Alternately the Chief also became cheaper and gives Veteran Leader to Thags himself.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Feb 20, 2018 9:02:07 GMT
Id rather stay away from Ammok though. I detest abilities that can so easily strip an army of the coreability they were designed around (ie exorcist).
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Feb 21, 2018 0:18:09 GMT
Id rather stay away from Ammok though. I detest abilities that can so easily strip an army of the coreability they were designed around (ie exorcist). Eh. Eeh. Eeeeeeeeeehhhhh. The whole balancing factor of rules like that, and skew in general is that it can be hard-countered. If people just chose not to take the hard counters, they'd just run rampant. An incorporeal-heavy cryx or grymkin list SHOULD fear a model like Ammok and SHOULD build lists with the reality in mind that they might encounter such models. This is also a huge part of the value of ADR.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Feb 21, 2018 23:03:53 GMT
There's counterplay and there's stuff like this. We should expect to occasionally run into incorporeal (or stacks of armourbuff or whatnot) and bring a means of handing out magic weapon in our pairings, something like that. It's why the naga is a good beast, why hexhunters still have their place etc.
When a faction suddenly gets a 20" bubble of doom against those models because it brought a model that's not counterplay it's bullying. Off course solos like that can be countered, probably by tech you allready had anyway, but I just don't like it myself.
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Post by piedpiperwtf on Feb 23, 2018 3:20:12 GMT
Like any other solo, if you don't play him careful enough he's the first to die. The exception being the stupid menoth punch monks....I hate them things, they never die.
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Post by apoc2148 on Feb 23, 2018 13:36:30 GMT
When a faction suddenly gets a 20" bubble of doom against those models because it brought a model that's not counterplay it's bullying. Off course solos like that can be countered, probably by tech you allready had anyway, but I just don't like it myself. Slight clarification, it is a 10" bubble that can move up to 10". A 20" bubble would stretch almost halfway across the table and would be op. A 10" bubble is much more manageable. It will prevent important pieces from getting hit by incorporeal models but that's about it. Not to mention that Ammok will never be on the front lines.
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Hjard
Junior Strategist
Posts: 123
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Post by Hjard on Feb 23, 2018 15:14:54 GMT
When a faction suddenly gets a 20" bubble of doom against those models because it brought a model that's not counterplay it's bullying. Off course solos like that can be countered, probably by tech you allready had anyway, but I just don't like it myself. Slight clarification, it is a 10" bubble that can move up to 10". A 20" bubble would stretch almost halfway across the table and would be op. A 10" bubble is much more manageable. It will prevent important pieces from getting hit by incorporeal models but that's about it. Not to mention that Ammok will never be on the front lines. It's 10" from Ammok, meaning the effect is ~21" in diameter. 10" out front is already far, but it's also 10" from him to the left AND right, creating a 21" wide zone of "no ghosts!". Of course it's also 10" in the back, but if you are ever in a situation where you have incorporeal models somewhere behind (behind meaning "your table side") Ammok you did something horribly wrong
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Post by apoc2148 on Feb 23, 2018 16:29:26 GMT
Slight clarification, it is a 10" bubble that can move up to 10". A 20" bubble would stretch almost halfway across the table and would be op. A 10" bubble is much more manageable. It will prevent important pieces from getting hit by incorporeal models but that's about it. Not to mention that Ammok will never be on the front lines. It's 10" from Ammok, meaning the effect is ~21" in diameter. 10" out front is already far, but it's also 10" from him to the left AND right, creating a 21" wide zone of "no ghosts!". Of course it's also 10" in the back, but if you are ever in a situation where you have incorporeal models somewhere behind (behind meaning "your table side") Ammok you did something horribly wrong Right, but like you said, if there are incorporeal models in Ammok's back arc something has gone terribly wrong.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Feb 26, 2018 10:15:59 GMT
Come to think of it Golab and "armour24 thagrosh" is less usefull than I thought because you can't have that armour up and have sprint at same time and that obly just occured to me. Seraph is a lot more usefull in that setup (took me a while to get there Lanz) and then it's all about them pressing hard and fast. I can still see BB fit into such a plan because you can't slipstream everyone anyway, and therefor chosen as well. Im uncertain about the rest. Are hellmouths still good for him, or are the ogryn solos or forsaken now more attractive? What would the battlegroup look like? Im thinking BB, seraph, carni, neraph, which leaves 24 points for chosen, freebee and our oneups.
Maybe it just means BB and eThags is not meant to be? If so, does he have any business running Terrors? I like the +2 deployment more then pretty much all the bonusses in oracles together, and still think chosen are a good fit even without BB, because they like the armourbuff amd can shield him, leaving the battlegroup to move freely on feat turn.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Feb 26, 2018 14:34:19 GMT
First: I make these assumptions based on where the CiD ended.
Thags2 is what drew me into Legion, and he may be what draws me back. Given that I started thinking about how I would run him. At the moment, everyone is talking about him in Primal Terrors, so I guess the first question is what theme.
Ravens? His feat works well with a hit and run style on his flying beasts, Manifest Destiny does a little to boost their damage anemia, and loves Hellmouths to increase his personal threat. But it's free points for infantry, which he does really nothing to boost save for one unit of high armor, which the best he can do is give it to Raptors. Not going to break any banks there.
Children? Well Manifest Destiny helps fix their damage cancer and his feat does great things for the Nephilim-Bros, as does Dragons Blood. Throw in Typhon to give you raw hitting power, and this could work. So what is missing? Fury management. They gave us a beast theme and took away our ability to run them. Sigh. So you best put everything into an alpha that will break them, because everything is going to frenzy the next turn. What would be required for that? Well damage buffs and threat extension... So they took away Nagas and Seraphs. So close to a shoe in but there are some really strong draw backs here.
Primal Terrors? +2" Deployment helps him really threaten deep, and free Hellmouths are great. Much of the reason Ravens likes him, PT does also. But again we are stuck running infantry. One unit of Chosen loves Dragons Blood, and that's about all you would run. Soooo... You are going to end up playing points down. Probably 10ish. And that's a lot of eggs in one basket
Oracles is where I think he's really going to shine. First, you'll get 14-16 free points. Nice. Thrones and Blightbringer both love Dragons Blood, and Thags loves having their huge bases to hide behind and then launch himself over. Seraphs, Forsaken, and Nagahs. All our key pieces except the Hellmouth.
I think my ideal for him would be: Blightbringer Throne Seraph Carnivean Blackfrost Nagah Free solos (Sorceress, Succubus, Forsaken?)
I'm not sure if you can get all this in 100 but I THINK you can...
I forget where points landed so I'm not sure what I have left. But this list can make Thags2 have a very strong personal threat with the bonuses available to it. It has two big, hard to remove models to threaten, block, and hold zones. Seraph to boost his threat Flare what he charges to prevent him from having to waste fury on boosts. Same from Blackfrost. Same from Throne. And again from Blightbringer. The Blightbringer def penalty can't be dodged. Flare from the Seraph can hopefully hit with boosts and multiple shots. Then 3+ Ice Cages. Nagah if you need it too. After all this you STILL have the Carnivean too.
Is his feat wasted? Kinda. But if anything they boosted Thags hitting and tanking a lot. So I think it would be a shame to waste it. This list threatens Assassination very hard without sacrificing attrition. And I think that's what it needs to do best.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Feb 26, 2018 19:31:38 GMT
Come to think of it Golab and "armour24 thagrosh" is less usefull than I thought because you can't have that armour up and have sprint at same time and that obly just occured to me. Seraph is a lot more usefull in that setup (took me a while to get there Lanz) and then it's all about them pressing hard and fast. I can still see BB fit into such a plan because you can't slipstream everyone anyway, and therefor chosen as well. Im uncertain about the rest. Are hellmouths still good for him, or are the ogryn solos or forsaken now more attractive? What would the battlegroup look like? Im thinking BB, seraph, carni, neraph, which leaves 24 points for chosen, freebee and our oneups. Maybe it just means BB and eThags is not meant to be? If so, does he have any business running Terrors? I like the +2 deployment more then pretty much all the bonusses in oracles together, and still think chosen are a good fit even without BB, because they like the armourbuff amd can shield him, leaving the battlegroup to move freely on feat turn. For myself, in Oracles I generally include things like the Throne and the Ice Witches. Conceptually (haven't played it), swapping to PT is just removing those oracles-exclusive models and replacing them with PT-exclusive models. Legion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Primal Terrors (CID) (Thagrosh 2) Thagrosh, the Messiah [+25] - Carnivean [18] - Neraph [12] - Ravagore [16] - Scythean [16] - Seraph [14] The Forsaken [4] Chosen of Everblight (max) [20] Hellmouth [0(6)] It's less points since it's 14 free points in Oracles vs 6 free points in PT, but I don't consider that a big loss. I think people focus too much on the cost of the models rather than the value of the models. A sorceress is a nice convenience, but I don't find her essential. I don't find myself necessarily needing 2 forsaken either. I can afford to give those up and still run a strong beast-heavy list. You have to plan your fury more to avoid frenzies, but you gain 2 solid 'tank' units between chosen and the hellmouth and thagrosh2 can buff either one's armor. Now you probably want to swap something for Golab in all this, so whatever that would be. Maybe the scythean and turn the Neraph into something else. Beyond this, you have what is essentially a scale of whether you want to focus more on infantry (in which case Thagrosh2 isn't the best choice of warlock) or focus more on beasts (in which case PT isn't the best choice of theme list). I think a BB tips the scale too far towards infantry due to the points it takes up.
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Post by jediguru on Feb 26, 2018 20:48:33 GMT
"It's less points since it's 14 free points in Oracles vs 6 free points in PT, but I don't consider that a big loss. I think people focus too much on the cost of the models rather than the value of the models. A sorceress is a nice convenience, but I don't find her essential."
This times 1000! So tired of seeing players constantly shoehorning themselves into lists just to get the most "free" points.
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