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Post by amaulercalldsuggles on Feb 8, 2018 14:17:26 GMT
So there was a list that appeared at the end of mark 2 involving Doomie3, Warders and Axes; www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHhC8_oh0T0 (quick shoutout to Warmachinist2012, love your work). Then with the warders nerf and relatively quick Mark3 drop, the list disappeared. However I can help but find myself continuously drawn back towards the xenophobic old bastard, and seeing as I don't particularly like the highly technical play style that goes with PoD, I wanna do something mad. I wanna play Doomie 3 in BoH. Whilst immediately not what most people would reach for, I feel like the Warders should have a place at Doomies side, given their high native armor and them being cheap shield guards that are best used when protecting something more valuable than themselves. The chronicler also fits in snugly, with his buffs working on the Warders, the stone and Doomie himself. With his help you can have the Warders charge at ps16, the krielstone kamikaze knockdown late game or put concealment on Doomie/feign death with the help of a love tap from Mulg. Speaking of Mulg, his arcane vortex ability should allow you to build Fort Kickass pretty easily wherever and whenever and be pretty safe from most threats. The rest of the beasts work fantastically as always, axers work splendidly as a troopers thresher nightmare, and as pseudo heavy hitters with rage. The benifits from theme are also not too shabby with takedown always being nice and 2" of extra deployment being very well received in a trollblood brick. Starting with the list from Mark2, I've dropped Janissa (rest in peace) and added the chronicler, whelps and runebearer. The champ hero is sadly a shadow of his former self and thus probably won't make the cut, but the rest fits together nicely. So why the post then? 2 reasons; 1) Looking pretty on paper doesn't always result in functional lists - I want to know, do people think it will work in a Mark 3 world? and - 2) I can't quite finish it - Warders + Max Stone is 29 points. That means a free runebearer, but I can't decide if I want to finish the last 11 points to get more free stuff or just stick with one and fill up on solos or mix it up a bit? The free points variant I have is this; (Doomshaper 3) Hoarluk Doomshaper, Dire Prophet [+26] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Mulg the Ancient [22] - Troll Axer [10] - Troll Axer [10] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Stone Scribe Chronicler [0(4)] Troll Whelps [4] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Sons of Bragg [11] Trollkin Warders (max) [17] and the solo bonanza was this; (Doomshaper 3) Hoarluk Doomshaper, Dire Prophet [+26] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Mulg the Ancient [22] - Troll Bouncer [9] - Troll Axer [10] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Fennblade Kithkar [4] Fennblade Kithkar [4] Stone Scribe Chronicler [4] Troll Whelps [4] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Trollkin Warders (max) [17] So I throw it to you guys, is it viable? (in a semi competitive way) and how should I try to round it out? (for bonus points try suggesting a pairing - I like Jarl and SotN  ) <3 Snuggles |
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Post by robbleyourworld on Feb 8, 2018 15:07:34 GMT
I didn't play in Mk2 but didn't Doomy3 have Ragnor's feat built into his as well? My understanding was that they split the feat so now Doomy3 provides almost nothing barring a mini-feat for infantry models.
WARNING: I'm about to flood this post with opinions parading around as fact please interpret accordingly.
Comments on the list:
to start with you could probably get a similar effect to warders with 2 bouncers or a bouncer + valks while being in PoD, that being said in the current scenario package there is a reason to want a nice tough unit. Try doing this with ragnor he makes warders ball bustingly difficult to remove
Neither list has a ranged threat which I never personally like.
List 1-
The SSC seems pointless here since Doomy's bread and butter is beasts, your warders seem like support to deliver your beasts and adding a SSC seems like doubling down on support. An offensive solo like a fell caller might be better.
The second axer seems redundant for rush and if its offensive output you're looking for try a basher.
the SoB aren't bad but I don't think Doomy brings them much and they're pretty expensive. Now I will agree that they bring a fair amount of reliable hard hitting attacks and with warders you can probably deliver them so maybe thats worth while but they're awfullly expensive with a caster that doesn't support them.
List 2-
Again SSC seems excessive especially if you're paying points for him.
Normally I automatically dislike the kithkar but as a model for removing a couple jamming infantry models he doesn't seem terrible though I don't think you want two.
Things to change:
I think what you want to play is Ragnor for a ridiculously tough infantry list that hits pretty hard as well.
If you're going to stick with Doomy3 consider just accepting that you're in BoH for a free solo and the solid theme benefits no point in adding more infantry which doomy doesn't support. I'd consider a gun or 2 like an ice troll, impaler, bomber, or even the winter troll is decent with doomy on his feat turn.
To the competetiveness of the list? Go for it, play what you want and see how it works. I'm sure with decent play it will be good enough into a range of lists to have fun at a local level.
For pairing hard to tell but probably something that handles infantry swarm well, Jarl SotN could probably do that if you build him for it.
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Post by CaptCommy on Feb 8, 2018 16:42:11 GMT
I didn't play in Mk2 but didn't Doomy3 have Ragnor's feat built into his as well? My understanding was that they split the feat so now Doomy3 provides almost nothing barring a mini-feat for infantry models. For reference, his MK2 feat was additional die for melee attack rolls for his battlegroup and when they suffer damage, the attacker does roll minus one die. However, the healing portion of his MK2 feat is just a d3, while in MK3 it's d3+3 which offsets and is sometimes better than minus 1 die (but also sometimes much worse). |
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Post by robbleyourworld on Feb 8, 2018 16:59:05 GMT
I didn't play in Mk2 but didn't Doomy3 have Ragnor's feat built into his as well? My understanding was that they split the feat so now Doomy3 provides almost nothing barring a mini-feat for infantry models. For reference, his MK2 feat was additional die for melee attack rolls for his battlegroup and when they suffer damage, the attacker does roll minus one die. However, the healing portion of his MK2 feat is just a d3, while in MK3 it's d3+3 which offsets and is sometimes better than minus 1 die (but also sometimes much worse). Thanks for the clarification, it only effected battlegroup too? |
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Post by ninjastars on Feb 8, 2018 18:05:25 GMT
I could see it being decent. I think the goal of any good donor list is to have an offensive feat turn, and having a front line of solid infantry is a good way to make that happen.
I’d run it slightly different than you though, I’d orobably go for northkin theme, because they have better skirmishers
War Room Army
Trollblood - Doomie 3 axers
Theme: Storm of the North
2 / 2 Free Cards 74 / 75 Army
Hoarluk Doomshaper, Dire Prophet & Scroll Bearers - WB: +26
- Hoarluk Doomshaper, Dire Prophet & Scroll Bearers (Cont.)
- Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 0
- Troll Axer - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10)
- Troll Axer - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10)
- Dire Troll Mauler - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6)
- Troll Axer - PC: 10
- Dire Troll Mauler - PC: 15
Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7
Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7
Northkin Bear Handler & Battle Bears - Bear Handler & 2 Battle Bears: 10
Northkin Bear Handler & Battle Bears - Bear Handler & 2 Battle Bears: 10
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 3 Grunts: 6
- Northkin Elder - PC: 0
One nice thing about this version is lighting the fire eaters is less important because of the scroll of molgur
Leaving mulg out is painful but on paper I think the points work better this way, and you can use a second mauler for the double animus scroll trick.
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Post by elwinar on Feb 8, 2018 18:56:47 GMT
What do you mean by "double animus scroll trick" ?
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Post by grabsnikk on Feb 8, 2018 19:31:47 GMT
What do you mean by "double animus scroll trick" ? The Axer can rush a Mauler. Then Doomy3 can activate and read his free animi for warbeasts scroll. The mauler can then charge/trample using rush and once it finished moving if it is still in Dommy3 control range can use rage for free from the scroll. |
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Post by elwinar on Feb 8, 2018 19:40:45 GMT
Oh. Okay. I was under the impression that it was expected that the Maulers could cast their animus twice each turn to buff all the Axers (which is not possible but could be a misreading of the Scroll's rule).
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Post by CaptCommy on Feb 8, 2018 21:09:56 GMT
For reference, his MK2 feat was additional die for melee attack rolls for his battlegroup and when they suffer damage, the attacker does roll minus one die. However, the healing portion of his MK2 feat is just a d3, while in MK3 it's d3+3 which offsets and is sometimes better than minus 1 die (but also sometimes much worse). Thanks for the clarification, it only effected battlegroup too? Yes, it was BG only then as well. |
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Post by amaulercalldsuggles on Feb 9, 2018 6:39:06 GMT
Glad to see people have some ideas on this. I greatly appreciate getting a different perspective on these things as it's so easy to get stuck in the same thought train and miss things Building on some of these ideas, starting with Ragnor. For me he's still the new kid on the block, trying to muscle in on Doomie's game. With the better half of doomie3's old feat and hex blast he's come from a similar place as Dooms, but then taken the defensive even further. I feel he's best used when you can capitalize on earths sanctuary and his feat, and for me that's with a small model count beast brick PoD list, and while there's no denying it's power, it is the play style I'm trying to avoid. The other reason I'd stick with Doomie3 is that his feat has two sides, an offensive and defensive which allows you to play it very differently from game to game, meaning it's less predictable and more fun. He also comes with 3 mini feats and that's just gravy. The big thing against taking him with infantry is that on feat turn people target the non-battlegroup models. But here that's not a bad thing as if they spend a whole turn killing the warders (all of 17 points) and not your beasts, well then his feat just became total beat immunity and you should have a party. However I think that because of this the SoBs are probably not so good here as they are worth something and would probably get eaten on feat turn as well for no real benefit. The suggesting of PoD with bouncers and Valkyries was something I hadn't considered and from my quick list bashing seemed pretty good. However I already own warders and I hate buying new models to replace ones I already have just because they might do things slightly better. I'm still on the fence regarding the SCC as charge of the trolls is made for combo lists like this, and he is able to buff Dooomie too, being a unit. He is a Janissa replacement and can mitigate some of Doomies old man defense. The Basher was an interesting point. The goal behind the axers was to use them with the extra feat attack die and thresher to get to as much stuff as possible. Considering them as just rush sticks hurts me in ways I can't explain  . With arm 17, pow 14 reach weapons and thresher they are pretty good lights in their own regard. But the basher wasn't around when the list was created and he also hits at pow 14, but arm 16 and only 1 inch melee hold him back. He threats 1 inch less than an axer before rush. The critical stagger could definitely be worth something especially with a boosted feat swing (4 dice) and he is 3 points cheaper so I would definitely still test him out. Finally, the kithkars. I still like them in this list for the sake of having some combat solos that can activate and clear stuff up without spending an axer or the warders activations to do so. Their ability to get up to mat 9 (effective 11 with scroll) and proc vengeance off of a whelp is cute and they are hardy enough to warrant serious attention by my opponenet whilst also being pretty cheap. Fellcallers could do the job but they don't hit much harder, have shorter melee threat and their spray is kinda inaccurate outside of the scroll buff. It's worth trying both I suppose. Some range to the list would be ideal, not to kill anything big, but to scaple out troublesome solos. I'm currently looking at eferait scouts and longchops but a light warbeast might be better. |
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Post by amaulercalldsuggles on Feb 9, 2018 6:43:39 GMT
Something like this perhaps?
(Doomshaper 3) Hoarluk Doomshaper, Dire Prophet [+26]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Mulg the Ancient [22]
- Troll Axer [10]
- Troll Basher [7]
- Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)]
Efaarit Scouts [6]
Fennblade Kithkar [4]
Fennblade Kithkar [4]
Troll Whelps [4]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
- Stone Scribe Elder [3]
Trollkin Warders (max) [17]
or this
(Doomshaper 3) Hoarluk Doomshaper, Dire Prophet [+26]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Mulg the Ancient [22]
- Storm Troll [9]
- Troll Axer [10]
- Troll Basher [7]
- Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)]
Longchops [5]
Troll Whelps [4]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
- Stone Scribe Elder [3]
Trollkin Warders (max) [17]
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Post by Trollock on Feb 9, 2018 8:07:23 GMT
This is going to be sort of a negative post, so feel free not to look. Bonus points for creativity for sure though! Why are you guys trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? Shield guards are very much needed with D3 nowadays with express teams and now Khador will get tanker solos that have ranged grievous wounds as well, but you can get that in PoD. The farrow valkyries give you 3 shield guards for 8 points. That is cheaper than the warders. The reason i am here raining on every ones parade is because how theme forces work. In their infinite wisdom, PP has decided that you must play a theme force to be competitive. Sure, if you look through tournaments all over the world with 50+ attendees for the last 6 months (or when ever it was the themepocalypse was released) you MIGHT find some one in the top 3 who has one list that was not a theme force, but that is incredibly rare. Theme forces STRONGLY encourages you to focus on one aspect of the faction. PoD wants you to play lots of beasts. BoH wants you to play lots of melee infantry and so on. Every time you are not "spamming" that aspect of the faction you are losing out on free solos/attachments, and that is the part about theme forces that makes them run over non-theme lists. If you built a beast brick without theme and i built one in PoD i would most likely beat you. Not because of the FA:U on runeshapers. Not because i got to cast my upkeeps for free (though that is nifty) and not because the DK get serenety. I would beat you because i had 3 free solo options you do not have, and that would effectively translate to me having almost a whole extra heavy. When you build a BoH list with only a little bit of infantry you will not get those juicy free solos. Also, you are building a list with more than a little infantry with a caster who does basically nothing for infantry. This cant possibly be the right way to go to build a good list. MK2 was COMPLETELY different when it came to list building. Theme forces worked completely different back then, and even though many claimed they were OP, the vast majority of lists played were NOT theme forces. Some casters were always played in theme, but many MANY casters were not. Playing Doomy 3 outside theme back then was not a big loss, especially when it allowed you to include the OP warders we had back then. Trying to replicate that now is something that just will not work well. Your list is mainly consistent of beasts because that is what Doomy wants. Then why not go with the flow? Play PoD and bring a trio of cheap shield guards to catch those grievous wound bullets. That is basically what the Warders do anyway. When was the last time your SPD 5 Warders got to charge something important? Though POW 16 charges are respectable, that just never happen on the table. Let us compare lists a little bit. I just pulled a PoD version out of my... you know... (Doomshaper 3) Hoarluk Doomshaper, Dire Prophet [+26]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Mulg the Ancient [22]
- Troll Axer [10]
- Troll Axer [10]
- Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)]
Stone Scribe Chronicler [0(4)]
Troll Whelps [4]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
- Stone Scribe Elder [3]
Sons of Bragg [11]
Trollkin Warders (max) [17] | [Theme] The Power of Dhunia
(Doomshaper 3) Hoarluk Doomshaper, Dire Prophet [+26]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Earthborn Dire Troll [14]
- Mulg the Ancient [22]
- Storm Troll [9]
- Troll Axer [10]
- Winter Troll [8]
- Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)]
Gremlin Swarm [3]
Janissa Stonetide [0(4)]
Troll Whelps [0(4)]
Farrow Valkyries [8]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
- Stone Scribe Elder [3]
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For simplicitys sake let us assume that your second Axer in itself is roughly as valuable as my Storm troll. They both are best against infantry, though the Axer COULD kill more clumped up infantry in one swipe, the storm has access to lightning fists to emulate that, as well as a very nifty gun that can do work early on. If you absolutely want a second Axer in my list, you could get that instead if you downgrade the gremlins to a FG. Our lists then are very similar. You have SoBs, Warders and a Chronicler. I have a Winter Troll, and EBDT, Valkyries, a gremlin Swarm and Janissa (or other free solo) My Valkyries are definitely worse than the Warders, but they do fill a very similar role: Protect the important beasts. SoBs can hit hard, but let us say that they hit roughly as hard as an EBDT, right? An EBDT though is way faster and WAY more durable. Then we have the chronicler who can protect the SoBs on the approach and then in theory he can apply charge of the trolls for some extra damage. Let us say you do that on 3 guys, that is 6 damage. Janissa can charge and do 6 damage to most things, right? And that is not really why you bring Janissa. Then we find that the PoD list has an extra light that is actually super good with Doomy (the combination of the feat and his animus is super funny) that has pathfinder and a boostable spray that can even crit stationary once in a blue moon. Then you have a Gremlin Swarm, who is the most annoying model in the game and that can help you stay relevant on scenario. Doesnt the PoD version just feel better? More beasts, more feat targets, more better. Sorry to come here and be all negative. I love creativity for sure, but i just feel like breaking theme with a beast caster who does basically nothing for infantry to include two of our mediocre units just feels like the wrong idea. |
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Post by amaulercalldsuggles on Feb 9, 2018 8:59:56 GMT
I guess my main issue with the PoD approach to D3 (which is undeniably competitively stronger) is that I just don't like those lists. I like combined arms, especially in trolls, with the various trolls coming together and supporting each other. But as you have correctly stated Trollock, this doesn't fit into any of our themes. And that makes me a very sad mauler.
I also really don't like replacing my existing models with newer slightly different ones to remain competitive.
So I guess my question then would be how could I try to make a list involving warders and beast without having to spam troops?
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Post by Trollock on Feb 9, 2018 10:13:32 GMT
I guess my main issue with the PoD approach to D3 (which is undeniably competitively stronger) is that I just don't like those lists. I like combined arms, especially in trolls, with the various trolls coming together and supporting each other. But as you have correctly stated Trollock, this doesn't fit into any of our themes. And that makes me a very sad mauler. I also really don't like replacing my existing models with newer slightly different ones to remain competitive. So I guess my question then would be how could I try to make a list involving warders and beast without having to spam troops? You can easily go for the "i take only 40 points of infantry"-approach in BoH. But why not do it with a caster who supports both beasts and infantry? imo, Doomshaper 3 is probably the least "combined arms" warlock we have  |
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724 
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Post by Arcaux on Feb 9, 2018 15:42:25 GMT
I guess my main issue with the PoD approach to D3 (which is undeniably competitively stronger) is that I just don't like those lists. I like combined arms, especially in trolls, with the various trolls coming together and supporting each other. But as you have correctly stated Trollock, this doesn't fit into any of our themes. And that makes me a very sad mauler. I also really don't like replacing my existing models with newer slightly different ones to remain competitive. So I guess my question then would be how could I try to make a list involving warders and beast without having to spam troops? You can easily go for the "i take only 40 points of infantry"-approach in BoH. But why not do it with a caster who supports both beasts and infantry? imo, Doomshaper 3 is probably the least "combined arms" warlock we have Doomy2 is the least Combined arms caster. He has a feat and spell list that only effect his battlegroup.
Doomy3 at least has that mini-feat that buffs infantry.
Other than that though Trollock is right. If you want combined arms can I suggest Doomy1 who at least brings Fortune and has a feat that affects his whole list
or Ragnor who has a similar feat to Doomy3 but it affects infantry as well.
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) 
. With arm 17, pow 14 reach weapons and thresher they are pretty good lights in their own regard. But the basher wasn't around when the list was created and he also hits at pow 14, but arm 16 and only 1 inch melee hold him back. He threats 1 inch less than an axer before rush. The critical stagger could definitely be worth something especially with a boosted feat swing (4 dice) and he is 3 points cheaper so I would definitely still test him out. 
