Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Feb 27, 2018 19:06:17 GMT
between this and the amount of fire immunity I'm hearing about, I'll be looking extremely closely at a lot of this stuff. I might be quoting their own menoth spoilers at them on day 1 (yeah, i'll get a temp ban probably).
On the topic of lots of individually powerful options that crowd each other....Diversity is not being respected as its own sort of power here. This is a big part of why grymkin are so good: they cover more bases with the same models, so while the main factions have options they have to predict the need for said options. These guys and Grymkin can carry said option more or less by accident.
I think the versatility is more a consequence of them being a limited release faction and PP wanting them to be self-sufficient. And that's fine, except that it gives them the ability to answer a lot more things with a single list. If I take harbinger into Horgle, my feat does not function. Grymkin can choose whichever two feats hurt them most. I get screwed, grymkin get to magic monkey out of it while having pieces that don't suffer an opportunity cost.
I'm seeing these alchemical options as a similar issue if they don't get carefully balanced.
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Feb 27, 2018 19:15:33 GMT
The strongest part is it takes away the pathfinder from huge bases... Poor huge bases... You say that, until you realize they jam up your opponent's army hard when they move 4 inches and can't charge over a wall they were hiding behind.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Feb 27, 2018 19:18:40 GMT
You say that, until you realize they jam up your opponent's army hard when they move 4 inches and can't charge over a wall they were hiding behind. So? it's about time there was a downside to picking one again.
Ever since the buffs to huge bases came through, I haven't seen a tournament day army without one, aside from my own.
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Feb 27, 2018 19:54:54 GMT
You say that, until you realize they jam up your opponent's army hard when they move 4 inches and can't charge over a wall they were hiding behind. So? it's about time there was a downside to picking one again.
Ever since the buffs to huge bases came through, I haven't seen a tournament day army without one, aside from my own.
Fair. I guess we really have different Metas. Mine doesn't use a ton of them so I don't have that same nagging despair about having to play against one every game. We have double turtles though and that will be one of the few ways to hinder them.
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Post by Azuresun on Feb 28, 2018 1:05:31 GMT
Purification is the one I'm more concerned about. As Mk2 clearly showed, unconditional no-counterplay upkeep hate is something you do not want proliferating too much, or it effectively takes a lot of casters & warlocks out of competitive play, and shafts some Hordes factions very hard. As he stands, Sylvestro can drop upkeeps (why would you leave them up if you decide to use Purification this turn?), Purify for free from 14" out, recast Transmutation & Admonition, and camp three (two if you also need the more situational Explosivo). I intend to playtest, but on paper that looks very dodgy. Yeah it does seem a bit odd that they are bringing Purification back outside of Menoth, when their stated aim going into Mk3 was to reduce how prolific it was. Maybe if he had Chasten or Repudiate instead. It makes perfect sense as a thematic alchemy thing--filtering out the dross as the first step to a perfect refinement. I think (again, before any testing) that if you just give the free spell potion a COST limit to exclude free Purification, then the problem is lessened. He's then in the same boat as Kreoss1, where Purification is a tough choice because you're wiping your own good upkeeps and can't easily throw them back up on the same turn.
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Hjard
Junior Strategist
Posts: 123
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Post by Hjard on Feb 28, 2018 7:07:12 GMT
I think (again, before any testing) that if you just give the free spell potion a COST limit to exclude free Purification, then the problem is lessened. He's then in the same boat as Kreoss1, where Purification is a tough choice because you're wiping your own good upkeeps and can't easily throw them back up on the same turn. It already is a tough choice for him. He might be able to cast Purification for free, but it still wipes his own upkeeps that cost him most of his focus to get back up AND prevents him from using his other two special effects.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Feb 28, 2018 8:02:37 GMT
I think (again, before any testing) that if you just give the free spell potion a COST limit to exclude free Purification, then the problem is lessened. He's then in the same boat as Kreoss1, where Purification is a tough choice because you're wiping your own good upkeeps and can't easily throw them back up on the same turn. It already is a tough choice for him. He might be able to cast Purification for free, but it still wipes his own upkeeps that cost him most of his focus to get back up AND prevents him from using his other two special effects. This would be true if said upkeeps weren't: - Admonition, which will most likely have expired because you triggered it
- Explosivo, which has the exact same cost to upkeep as to cast it. You will likely want to cycle it anyway.
- Transmutation, which for some reason costs only 2, whereas any other offensive upkeep with a similar power costs 3. For some reason this gets the defensive upkeep treatment of only costing 2, not taking into account the incredible versatility of the spell. Also a good candidate for cycling as it costs so little anyway.
Spells that you want to cycle don't care if they get purified as they will get dropped when recasting anyway. I agree that if he keeps Purification, he should not be able to cast it for free.
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Post by jisidro on Feb 28, 2018 9:23:43 GMT
You say that, until you realize they jam up your opponent's army hard when they move 4 inches and can't charge over a wall they were hiding behind. I wasn't being ironic, I meant it.
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Post by lovehugs on Mar 3, 2018 5:25:28 GMT
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Miafan
Junior Strategist
Eater of Brains
Posts: 130
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Post by Miafan on Mar 3, 2018 7:20:21 GMT
Looking at this... thing? Looking at Judicator.
Looking again.
...
Shove it, PP. Enough is enough.
PS. Please don't forget to remind me about the choir tax and non comparison of models in different factions.
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Post by Azuresun on Mar 3, 2018 11:05:21 GMT
Because every new release should be as bad as the acknowledged duds? The Judicator needs fixing or a price drop, and the new colossal is good at a glance, those two facts are unrelated. But hey, the Vulcan will probably be a BAHI model, so it's already nerfed in that regard.
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Miafan
Junior Strategist
Eater of Brains
Posts: 130
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Post by Miafan on Mar 3, 2018 12:16:48 GMT
New colossal has basically same concept as Judicator. Missile-launching platform with elemental sprays sidearms. Just OVERWHELMINGLY better in every aspect at +1 point (spd6? RAT6? choir tax, I guess!). That's related for me. Y, I know - stoopid. Question: why PP announces this crap instead of first fixing stuff like Judicator? Because you bought enough judicators already, valued customers, now go make us sales on new faction. You do not want? Languish in damnation. And later we'll PROBABLY fix the old crapy stuff. Or maybe not. Who can guess?
In other words, welcome to WH40k 5th edition. Go buy your Grey Knights.
Stuff it.
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Post by thimnwitt on Mar 3, 2018 13:03:22 GMT
I think comparing the Judicator to the Vulcan is a trap. For starters once Menoth gets their CID the Judicator may undergo changes as we have seen with most big guys.I fully support the Judicator getting looked at, but right now wouldn't be that time going into the CG CID.
I am more interested in the overall interactions available to the CG. Nothing as I have seen immediately jumps out as broken, but it does seem to be powerful with a deep tool box. That's probably good in a limited-time ion. There appears to be some meta changing potential in what we have seen released. Trolls can not drop Madrak1 into CG, and that's probably good.
Menoth will get their time in the CID soon, I think it would be better to focus on the CG instead of comparing it to things outside of the faction.
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Post by Azuresun on Mar 3, 2018 14:12:19 GMT
New colossal has basically same concept as Judicator. Missile-launching platform with elemental sprays sidearms. Just OVERWHELMINGLY better in every aspect at +1 point (spd6? RAT6? choir tax, I guess!). That's related for me. Y, I know - stoopid. Question: why PP announces this crap instead of first fixing stuff like Judicator? Because you bought enough judicators already, valued customers, now go make us sales on new faction. You do not want? Languish in damnation. And later we'll PROBABLY fix the old crapy stuff. Or maybe not. Who can guess? In other words, welcome to WH40k 5th edition. Go buy your Grey Knights. Stuff it.
Yah, not what I said at all, but you're raging too hard for it to be worthwhile explaining that there's no obligation to fix a bad thing before releasing something not-bad, especially when the weaker colossals are getting fixed on their own schedule, as any Khador player could tell you.
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Post by lovehugs on Mar 3, 2018 14:12:38 GMT
If I was to compare this to the pre CID Victor I'd sand my nipples with lemon soaked 40grit.
But I think PP know where some collossals stand in the meta and will come round to them in CIDs.
So far I'd say the base units of CG are solid. I haven't looked at the stats on any of their stuff and written it off as trash.
I am concerned about how all corners they are though. In terms of ADR and tourneys, covering so much ground with a single list seems strong.
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