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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Feb 27, 2018 9:36:56 GMT
Err, can we not hand out Prowl as a separate rule. This is basically: "All you stealth casters out there? Firetruck you, this guy is immune to all the anti-stealth tech!" And then that spell list and feat, wtf? Test it in CID and give feedback.
Agreed Impenetrable Haze is very good, but if he is forced to use it then he misses out on the other abilities, yes his spell list seems very powerful, but there is no way he can even begin to cast all of them, he has 3 upkeeps for a start, and they have no caster attachment that we know of to reduce the burden. Also if he does cast Purification he strips all of his own upkeeps, so even if he can cast it for free, he will need a really good reason to do so.
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Hjard
Junior Strategist
Posts: 123
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Post by Hjard on Feb 27, 2018 9:48:28 GMT
I agree with CygnarGuy. This caster fits what we have seen from the others of this faction. All of them look like overpowered bullshit at first, because of the twelve dozen things they could theoretically do. Then you notice they can use at most half of them in any given turn before running out of resources and everything is fine again. Especially this guy. Yes he has stealth on steroids, but then he's not getting a free spell. Yes he has a lot of really good spells, but they are all super expensive to use. Yes he can speedboost all of his jacks for free, but then he doesn't get stealth / free spell, so also boosting their STR AND providing them with Focus to actually do something (no readily available free charges in the faction so far) becomes hard.
So the motto for the factions Warcasters seems to be: Unlimited, widely different options, severely limited resources. Which is nice and interesting and also opposite to the other small faction, CoC, with unlimited resources, but only few different options on using them in any given list.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Feb 27, 2018 9:56:48 GMT
Err, can we not hand out Prowl as a separate rule. This is basically: "All you stealth casters out there? Firetruck you, this guy is immune to all the anti-stealth tech!" And then that spell list and feat, wtf? Test it in CID and give feedback.
Agreed Impenetrable Haze is very good, but if he is forced to use it then he misses out on the other abilities, yes his spell list seems very powerful, but there is no way he can even begin to cast all of them, he has 3 upkeeps for a start, and they have no caster attachment that we know of to reduce the burden. Also if he does cast Purification he strips all of his own upkeeps, so even if he can cast it for free, he will need a really good reason to do so.
It's not about "being forced to use it", it's more about that they're making a special case for an otherwise wide-spread effect already, which they tried to reduce at the start of MK3. This is just another arms race and is really unfair to any model that relies on stealth, but can't against the anti-stealth gunlines. I'm wondering what their reasoning is for making this a special effect, the wording is exactly the same, all it does is circumvent anti-stealth tech, which I'm not sure is something we need.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Feb 27, 2018 10:08:59 GMT
Test it in CID and give feedback.
Agreed Impenetrable Haze is very good, but if he is forced to use it then he misses out on the other abilities, yes his spell list seems very powerful, but there is no way he can even begin to cast all of them, he has 3 upkeeps for a start, and they have no caster attachment that we know of to reduce the burden. Also if he does cast Purification he strips all of his own upkeeps, so even if he can cast it for free, he will need a really good reason to do so.
It's not about "being forced to use it", it's more about that they're making a special case for an otherwise wide-spread effect already, which they tried to reduce at the start of MK3. This is just another arms race and is really unfair to any model that relies on stealth, but can't against the anti-stealth gunlines. I'm wondering what their reasoning is for making this a special effect, the wording is exactly the same, all it does is circumvent anti-stealth tech, which I'm not sure is something we need. I think it is totally appropriate for a faction who specialises in experimental and cutting edge alchemy to have some never before seen compounds and weaponry.
I fail to see how it is 'unfair' on casters who rely on Stealth, models are different in this game, deal with it...
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Post by jisidro on Feb 27, 2018 10:11:13 GMT
Writing rules without calling them out is in no way good design. If there is too much anti-stealth tech out there don't give it out like candy.
Other than that he looks very appealing. 2/3 of the Issyria Feat + a healing clause that may be situational but good (Hordes would love this clause). A great spell list and a free spell (All the new casters get free spells?) or Non-Stealth Stealth or a BG spd buff.
I'm impressed with him.
The unit... Not so sure but it makes no-CID medium based cry with envy.
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Post by Azuresun on Feb 27, 2018 14:07:26 GMT
Test it in CID and give feedback.
Agreed Impenetrable Haze is very good, but if he is forced to use it then he misses out on the other abilities, yes his spell list seems very powerful, but there is no way he can even begin to cast all of them, he has 3 upkeeps for a start, and they have no caster attachment that we know of to reduce the burden. Also if he does cast Purification he strips all of his own upkeeps, so even if he can cast it for free, he will need a really good reason to do so.
Purification is the one I'm more concerned about. As Mk2 clearly showed, unconditional no-counterplay upkeep hate is something you do not want proliferating too much, or it effectively takes a lot of casters & warlocks out of competitive play, and shafts some Hordes factions very hard. As he stands, Sylvestro can drop upkeeps (why would you leave them up if you decide to use Purification this turn?), Purify for free from 14" out, recast Transmutation & Admonition, and camp three (two if you also need the more situational Explosivo). I intend to playtest, but on paper that looks very dodgy.
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Post by tiberius on Feb 27, 2018 14:30:34 GMT
I am really liking what I see from these guys so far, they seem very versatile. And a few of their things may seem really potent, but keep in mind, these guys have to compete with already established factions with a lot more choices and options. Like Grimkin, they will come out with some really good tools but then rarely get anything more.
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Post by xskeletalx on Feb 27, 2018 16:49:47 GMT
So the motto for the factions Warcasters seems to be: Unlimited, widely different options, severely limited resources. Which is nice and interesting and also opposite to the other small faction, CoC, with unlimited resources, but only few different options on using them in any given list.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Feb 27, 2018 16:53:27 GMT
Test it in CID and give feedback.
Agreed Impenetrable Haze is very good, but if he is forced to use it then he misses out on the other abilities, yes his spell list seems very powerful, but there is no way he can even begin to cast all of them, he has 3 upkeeps for a start, and they have no caster attachment that we know of to reduce the burden. Also if he does cast Purification he strips all of his own upkeeps, so even if he can cast it for free, he will need a really good reason to do so.
Purification is the one I'm more concerned about. As Mk2 clearly showed, unconditional no-counterplay upkeep hate is something you do not want proliferating too much, or it effectively takes a lot of casters & warlocks out of competitive play, and shafts some Hordes factions very hard. As he stands, Sylvestro can drop upkeeps (why would you leave them up if you decide to use Purification this turn?), Purify for free from 14" out, recast Transmutation & Admonition, and camp three (two if you also need the more situational Explosivo). I intend to playtest, but on paper that looks very dodgy. Yeah it does seem a bit odd that they are bringing Purification back outside of Menoth, when their stated aim going into Mk3 was to reduce how prolific it was. Maybe if he had Chasten or Repudiate instead.
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Feb 27, 2018 18:02:56 GMT
I would also like to point out that Syvestro's personal threat is rather small. He only nuke is rather expensive so he can't spam it too easily unless he uses it as his free spell. As the article he was spoiled in stated, he's got the classic Circle warlock stat line which is very average and not too hard to kill (outside his super stealth). He is a support caster that really doesn't want to be in the middle of the board unless he has a huge advantage. He reminds me of an Issyria or Severius1 in that sense. Squishy but almost pure support.
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Post by mindwormjim on Feb 27, 2018 18:07:04 GMT
Is it just me or is the Transmutation spell completely insane?
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Feb 27, 2018 18:08:28 GMT
Is it just me or is the Transmutation spell completely insane? The strongest part is it takes away the pathfinder from huge bases...
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Feb 27, 2018 18:35:33 GMT
Purification is the one I'm more concerned about. As Mk2 clearly showed, unconditional no-counterplay upkeep hate is something you do not want proliferating too much, or it effectively takes a lot of casters & warlocks out of competitive play, and shafts some Hordes factions very hard. As he stands, Sylvestro can drop upkeeps (why would you leave them up if you decide to use Purification this turn?), Purify for free from 14" out, recast Transmutation & Admonition, and camp three (two if you also need the more situational Explosivo). I intend to playtest, but on paper that looks very dodgy. Yeah it does seem a bit odd that they are bringing Purification back outside of Menoth, when their stated aim going into Mk3 was to reduce how prolific it was. Maybe if he had Chasten or Repudiate instead. between this and the amount of fire immunity I'm hearing about, I'll be looking extremely closely at a lot of this stuff. I might be quoting their own menoth spoilers at them on day 1 (yeah, i'll get a temp ban probably).
On the topic of lots of individually powerful options that crowd each other....Diversity is not being respected as its own sort of power here. This is a big part of why grymkin are so good: they cover more bases with the same models, so while the main factions have options they have to predict the need for said options. These guys and Grymkin can carry said option more or less by accident.
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Post by chillychinaman on Feb 27, 2018 18:51:26 GMT
Yeah it does seem a bit odd that they are bringing Purification back outside of Menoth, when their stated aim going into Mk3 was to reduce how prolific it was. Maybe if he had Chasten or Repudiate instead. between this and the amount of fire immunity I'm hearing about, I'll be looking extremely closely at a lot of this stuff. I might be quoting their own menoth spoilers at them on day 1 (yeah, i'll get a temp ban probably).
On the topic of lots of individually powerful options that crowd each other....Diversity is not being respected as its own sort of power here. This is a big part of why grymkin are so good: they cover more bases with the same models, so while the main factions have options they have to predict the need for said options. These guys and Grymkin can carry said option more or less by accident.
I think the versatility is more a consequence of them being a limited release faction and PP wanting them to be self-sufficient.
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Post by jisidro on Feb 27, 2018 18:59:39 GMT
Is it just me or is the Transmutation spell completely insane? The strongest part is it takes away the pathfinder from huge bases... Poor huge bases...
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