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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 5, 2018 12:54:17 GMT
I'm inclined to agree that he is probably designed to be a linchpin for many lists. Vet Leader for Warjacks and Field Marshall Dispel are things you would want in every list. He's personally tougher than other Journeymen, but also quite unusual in having abilities that encourage you to play him close to the front lines. No sitting at the back and upkeeping Arcane Shield while your controlled jack is 6" away with a 12" range gun. Both his Vet Leader and Instability Equation spell are short-ranged (6"). Even if you want to run exploit Vet Leader with shooty jacks, the only shooty jack we've seen so far has good but very short-ranged sprays (Vanguard is longer, but not really a designated shooty jack). And as a Khador player, base ARM 16 and 8 boxes isn't that tough (just ask Khador players for their views on the base survivability of MoW Demo Corps or Bombardiers, who share those stats). He looks like a risk/reward type model in design. Not just in terms of the Unstable rule, but that you're rewarded for bringing him forward, where there's a significant risk of him being taken out. If he is killed, you lose his abilities and his controlled jack loses its controller for at least a turn too. Interesting to see how that risk/reward approach plays out on the table though. Vanguards in the CG mean there may be at least one resilient shield guard around, but will that be enough to keep him safe? The Vulcan Colossal has been spoiled and has some very good guns, survivability could be an issue if you play him further up, but Gearhart has Deceleration which can make him arm 18 against ranged, and one of the themes lets Vanguards Shield Guard twice a turn
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 5, 2018 14:01:52 GMT
I'm inclined to agree that he is probably designed to be a linchpin for many lists. Vet Leader for Warjacks and Field Marshall Dispel are things you would want in every list. He's personally tougher than other Journeymen, but also quite unusual in having abilities that encourage you to play him close to the front lines. No sitting at the back and upkeeping Arcane Shield while your controlled jack is 6" away with a 12" range gun. Both his Vet Leader and Instability Equation spell are short-ranged (6"). Even if you want to run exploit Vet Leader with shooty jacks, the only shooty jack we've seen so far has good but very short-ranged sprays (Vanguard is longer, but not really a designated shooty jack). And as a Khador player, base ARM 16 and 8 boxes isn't that tough (just ask Khador players for their views on the base survivability of MoW Demo Corps or Bombardiers, who share those stats). He looks like a risk/reward type model in design. Not just in terms of the Unstable rule, but that you're rewarded for bringing him forward, where there's a significant risk of him being taken out. If he is killed, you lose his abilities and his controlled jack loses its controller for at least a turn too. Interesting to see how that risk/reward approach plays out on the table though. Vanguards in the CG mean there may be at least one resilient shield guard around, but will that be enough to keep him safe? I also noted the tiny command range. This isn't one of those fake risks or drawbacks, like warbeast damage spirals or the (now dead) "risk" of chucking magnus forward with your own forces on his feat turn in theme. This dude will be a priority target to shut down a beneficial aura AND a warjack.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 5, 2018 14:37:31 GMT
Another DEF 12 troops? No thanks.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 5, 2018 14:43:21 GMT
Another DEF 12 troops? No thanks. What is DEF 12?
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 5, 2018 18:51:58 GMT
I'm inclined to agree that he is probably designed to be a linchpin for many lists. Vet Leader for Warjacks and Field Marshall Dispel are things you would want in every list. He's personally tougher than other Journeymen, but also quite unusual in having abilities that encourage you to play him close to the front lines. No sitting at the back and upkeeping Arcane Shield while your controlled jack is 6" away with a 12" range gun. Both his Vet Leader and Instability Equation spell are short-ranged (6"). Even if you want to run exploit Vet Leader with shooty jacks, the only shooty jack we've seen so far has good but very short-ranged sprays (Vanguard is longer, but not really a designated shooty jack). And as a Khador player, base ARM 16 and 8 boxes isn't that tough (just ask Khador players for their views on the base survivability of MoW Demo Corps or Bombardiers, who share those stats). He looks like a risk/reward type model in design. Not just in terms of the Unstable rule, but that you're rewarded for bringing him forward, where there's a significant risk of him being taken out. If he is killed, you lose his abilities and his controlled jack loses its controller for at least a turn too. Interesting to see how that risk/reward approach plays out on the table though. Vanguards in the CG mean there may be at least one resilient shield guard around, but will that be enough to keep him safe? Keep in mind that it's more like ARM21 and 8 boxes for the few attacks that get sent his way. Often, that level of tankiness is deterrent enough from killing him if all he is doing is bringing a relatively inexpensive light or heavy warjack. The fact that it would take more than 2 quality ranged attacks to kill him means your opponent will probably decide that it's folly to spend the necessary amount of resources to kill him (which would probably be the correct assessment).
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Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 6, 2018 6:58:43 GMT
Another DEF 12 troops? No thanks. What is DEF 12? On the weapon crew unit. It suggests that some branch will have DEF 12.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 6, 2018 9:09:51 GMT
On the weapon crew unit. It suggests that some branch will have DEF 12. meh, if they are def 12 its hardly the end of the world, they are just gonna sit there and shoot with RNG 14
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Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 6, 2018 10:41:48 GMT
On the weapon crew unit. It suggests that some branch will have DEF 12. meh, if they are def 12 its hardly the end of the world, they are just gonna sit there and shoot with RNG 14 The weapon crews themselves actually does, and I don't deny it. But the point is their DEF suggests at least a branch of units will share the same defensive stats. I didn't doubt the effectiveness of the weapon crew themselves at all and I didn't even think about that; I just pointed out that their DEF 12 suggests some of their backbone troops will share pitiful DEF 12 as well.Winter Guard Field Gun Crew and Winter Guard Mortar Crew has DEF 12, as Winter Guard Infantry and Winter Guard Rifle Corps are also has DEF 12. And the fact that Mortar Crew are sit behind of the others and shoots the enemy safely does nothing to pitiful defense of Winter Guard Infantry(and Rifle Corps).
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 6, 2018 10:52:59 GMT
meh, if they are def 12 its hardly the end of the world, they are just gonna sit there and shoot with RNG 14 The weapon crews themselves actually does, and I don't deny it. But the point is their DEF suggests at least a branch of units will share the same defensive stats. I didn't doubt the effectiveness of the weapon crew themselves at all; I just pointed out that their DEF 12 suggests some of their backbone troops will share pitiful DEF 12 as well.Winter Guard Field Gun Crew and Winter Guard Mortar Crew has DEF 12, as Winter Guard Infantry and Winter Guard Rifle Corps are also has DEF 12. And the fact that Mortar Crew are sit behind of the others and shoots the enemy safely does nothing to pitiful defense of Winter Guard Infantry(and Rifle Corps). It's a good job we can playtest and give feedback then
edit, also It may have been more constructive to say that from the start, rather than being deliberately obtuse...
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Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 6, 2018 10:59:57 GMT
The weapon crews themselves actually does, and I don't deny it. But the point is their DEF suggests at least a branch of units will share the same defensive stats. I didn't doubt the effectiveness of the weapon crew themselves at all; I just pointed out that their DEF 12 suggests some of their backbone troops will share pitiful DEF 12 as well.Winter Guard Field Gun Crew and Winter Guard Mortar Crew has DEF 12, as Winter Guard Infantry and Winter Guard Rifle Corps are also has DEF 12. And the fact that Mortar Crew are sit behind of the others and shoots the enemy safely does nothing to pitiful defense of Winter Guard Infantry(and Rifle Corps). It's a good job we can playtest and give feedback then
edit, also It may have been more constructive to say that from the start, rather than being deliberately obtuse...
Sure, I didn't forget that we didn't even get the first official CID for them. But the possibility to an another DEF 12 troops makes me baffle.
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Post by tiberius on Mar 6, 2018 11:28:04 GMT
Defense 12 is pretty average, not everything can be above the bar. And all the troops in this faction seem to have a lot of immunities and other option abilities that either make up for, or justify the average defense. I am expecting to see a lot of cloud generation in faction which makes those DEF 12 actually DEF 14 with concealment, or have something that reduces enemy MAT when they are close like ashen veil.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 6, 2018 15:12:35 GMT
Unlike the others, DEF seems rarely increased if they made the initial plan.... So it is unlikely to be changed.
Also, DEF 12 is quite bad because even RAT 5 can hit them more than 50% without aim, so they are killed quite easily. If they can benefit from concealment or something that make up their terrible defense easily on the faction(NOT caster dependent) then it would be fine, sure. But without that I don't think that the regular units with such victim stat are even playable(the weapon crew does, for they have RNG 14 and Arcing Fire, though).
Well, perhaps they will have the better tools than Assault Kommando... at least. They are the alchemist faction so hope that they have a lots of tools for that.
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By the way, I have a look for the weapon crew now. Isn't it too expensive? It is not meant to deal with armors(it does against some warbeasts, though), nor it can kill a bunch of enemy well. AOE 4 is acceptable for infantry killing but is not enough for 6 points anyways.
If it is released on the first week of CID as same as the sheet what we do? I know that the other models are also need to be considered, though....
Perhaps leaves the AOE as the cloud that damages someone enters or ends activation? Without any stat/ability modification, they seems fit for a 4 point unit.... They has shorter range, and is weaker than Winter Guard Mortar Crew.
I don't think that their utility that removes Tough or helps to dispatch living warbeasts are good in general. Although they surely have a place for them(such as against Trenchers or Hordes factions), but isn't they too expensive despite their nature of the specialist?
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Post by Azuresun on Mar 6, 2018 16:36:34 GMT
Depends on the theme forces--the cost of the artilery crew might be effecively 0.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 6, 2018 17:02:52 GMT
Depends on the theme forces--the cost of the artilery crew might be effecively 0. Pagani confirmed on one of the spoiler casts that the Dragons Breath Rockets can be free in one of the themes
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Mar 6, 2018 18:50:36 GMT
Unlike the others, DEF seems rarely increased if they made the initial plan.... So it is unlikely to be changed. Also, DEF 12 is quite bad because even RAT 5 can hit them more than 50% without aim, so they are killed quite easily. If they can benefit from concealment or something that make up their terrible defense easily on the faction(NOT caster dependent) then it would be fine, sure. But without that I don't think that the regular units with such victim stat are even playable(the weapon crew does, for they have RNG 14 and Arcing Fire, though). Well, perhaps they will have the better tools than Assault Kommando... at least. They are the alchemist faction so hope that they have a lots of tools for that. --------------------------------- By the way, I have a look for the weapon crew now. Isn't it too expensive? It is not meant to deal with armors(it does against some warbeasts, though), nor it can kill a bunch of enemy well. AOE 4 is acceptable for infantry killing but is not enough for 6 points anyways. If it is released on the first week of CID as same as the sheet what we do? I know that the other models are also need to be considered, though.... Perhaps leaves the AOE as the cloud that damages someone enters or ends activation? Without any stat/ability modification, they seems fit for a 4 point unit.... They has shorter range, and is weaker than Winter Guard Mortar Crew. I don't think that their utility that removes Tough or helps to dispatch living warbeasts are good in general. Although they surely have a place for them(such as against Trenchers or Hordes factions), but isn't they too expensive despite their nature of the specialist? Some of your concerns seem to not be taking into effect that it is known that this is a debuff faction. Until we get the entire picture, we should have concerns, but understand that there are probably other debuffs that we have yet to see.
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