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Post by aniron on Jan 9, 2018 12:49:05 GMT
BAHI models include international shipping. The added cost to international buyers is customs and VAT. The pre-orders have free shipping, whether that will apply for people purchasing one month or a year from now remains to be seen.
Also when is the Dracodile going to be available again? The blur states it should be available as a normal item in the online store from Dec 15th onwards, but it is down as 'out of stock'
It's out of stock because that's the pre-order SKU with the included t-shirt. They don't appear to have put up the non-preorder version yet.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 9, 2018 12:53:43 GMT
The pre-orders have free shipping, whether that will apply for people purchasing one month or a year from now remains to be seen.
Also when is the Dracodile going to be available again? The blur states it should be available as a normal item in the online store from Dec 15th onwards, but it is down as 'out of stock'
It's out of stock because that's the pre-order SKU with the included t-shirt. They don't appear to have put up the non-preorder version yet. yet the blurb states the 15th of December... top marks PP, you guys are really pro!
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jan 9, 2018 13:09:50 GMT
some numbers about the production costs. here in austria a steel mold for hard plastic injection casting with a size of 136x136x190 inch costs ~60k $ (= 50k € fixed price) and has a precision of +/- 0,00020 inch ( 0.005mm ) it doesn´t matter how many parts are in the mold. it doesn´t matter how detailed the parts are in the mold. you have to pay 60k$ for the production of the mold thats it. keep in mind that austria is one of the most expensive countries because of the very high labour costs. one mold lasts for multiple tens of thousands casting cycles. now lets add 6k $ ( =5k €) for artworks, sculping/3D designing, 3D prototype printing, studio painter, photography etc. costs for the cast material (hard plastic Hydra etc.) are negligible. so we have 66k $ investment cost /165$ costs per unit = 400 units after ~ 400 units the production runs at pure profit. That is very interesting. While you captured the design and tooling costs, you forgot a couple of costs, though: Machine Time (you have a mold, now someone has to load and unload the mold from the press, run the press, etc.) Material (the cost of material is very low, but not negligible - don't forget test / warm-up pieces) Financing (I doubt Privateer Press has $66,000 sitting around doing nothing, they need to borrow it) Packaging (you have to have a box and inserts to send the Hooch Hauler to the customer) Labor (The Hooch Hauler does not magically end up in the box or prepared for shipping) Transport (PP would not be doing the molding, so it has to get from the press shop to PP, and from PP to the customer) And then there is one other thing we should discuss: Do you think PP will actually sell 400+ kits in a short period of time? Miniature wargaming is a hobby with some popularity, but we are still a small niche hobby. Warmachine and Hordes are popular games, but it is still only a portion of the wargaming hobby. Trolls is only 1 out of 13 factions (16 factions if you split the Mercs and Minions up) Storm of the North is 1 of 4 Troll themes, and the Hooch Hauler is very geared towards this theme So, if you have a wargamer who plays Warmahordes, that actually plays Trolls, and has decided to put together a Storm of the North theme army, he might buy a Hooch Hauler - if he can afford the $165 (or more for outside of the USA.) I understand the point you are trying to make, but I think you - over-estimate the volume of sales that the Hooch hauler will have - over-estimate Privateer Press' ability to handle a loss or wait for a return on investment - greatly under-estimate the side costs - under-estimate PP's desired profit margin for selling this stuff direct.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Jan 9, 2018 13:24:05 GMT
As far as I know that's only for preorders. It would mean a lot though if they will ship for free allways, because while we do pay import over 165+postage, we don't for just the 165 dollar (only ordinary tax). That's an 80 dollar difference.
Still, the 200 dollars that remain for a battleengine is absurd imo. Tue should have made a cheaper sculpt. Besides the price, it's absurdly large anyway.
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Jan 9, 2018 13:36:47 GMT
It's even worse if the model turns out not to be niche, actually, because at that point the game becomes an exercise in pay to win. I would say that it already is, at least in some sense. But it is obviously a scale that can be more or less. I assume that everyone agrees that having a larger collection of models to assemble armies from when you go to a game is an advantage. Hence, spending more money gives you an advantage, just at a basic fundamental level. But we are not at a stage where a more expensive 100 point list is automatically better than a less expensive 100 point list. And I assume that is the point you are making. If more expensive models automatically had more powerful rules compared to their points cost, then that would leave a very bad taste in everyone's mouth I assume, since that would be artificially pushing lists to be more expensive. I don't think the Hooch Hauler is a symptom of this though, simply because it is so restricted to only trolls and one theme. We should look more to the Eilish issue for that, where the deal seemed to be that a model could be especially powerful and useful and available if it promotes something that PP wants to promote, like a magazine.
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Jan 9, 2018 13:43:52 GMT
I do feel like models for miniatures have always had a dual purpose.
1. As a game piece. 2. As a collectable paintable hobby project.
People spend loads of money on things that are only number 2, like busts and dioramas and stuff. So it doesn't faze me when companies release models that are more intended as number 2 than number 1. Just look at GW's Forge World. That seems to be the direction that BAHI wants to go in.
I know it's annoying for people who care more about game pieces though.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 9, 2018 13:45:08 GMT
Do we know when/if Eilish is out for general release? I have mine, but it sucks for new players or ones that missed out
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 9, 2018 14:13:24 GMT
Do we know when/if Eilish is out for general release? I have mine, but it sucks for new players or ones that missed out I would like to know this too. I really want Ellish. wishing I do think it’s a matter of “how much are you willing to spend” but most of the people that play this game are in it for the game. My dad is an exception, he got into it for the models and stayed for the game (always loved trolls.) Even he (who was fine buying the northkin raiders) was really put off by the high cost of this mini. It’s not typical of PP and I think people are concerned this is going to be a trend with BAHI. I would prefer the hauler be an exception, not the standard from this point going forward. Based on this I am thinking Skarre 3 May be the most expensive caster in the game. But hopefully that’s all just doom and gloom and has no real merit. I’m not going to argue production costs, because I have no idea about any of that and honestly, we can speculate but only PP knows all that info. I can say that, as a consumer, this models price is shocking and off putting and I think they dropped the ball from a marketing perspective.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jan 9, 2018 16:02:19 GMT
I just hope this isn't an indication that the Dracodile was mis-priced. It has yet to be available from the store normally. I would absolutely hate it if the Dracodile finally hit the store for a higher price than the pre-order.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 9, 2018 16:11:51 GMT
A good point I heard raised on the WMHUKISS podcast was that BAHI is comparable to Forgeworld for GW, us in the UK have it easy with regards to Forgeworld as we can just pay regular shipping, or just go to Nottingham and pick it up in person. It could be argued that BAHI is just a flipside of that.
However they also pointed out the difference between Forgeworld and BAHI, is that Forgeworld has always been (for the most part) large niche pieces and collectors items outside of the regular 40k game. BAHI by comparison is putting regular game models potentially out of reasonable access to a lot of players, it may not matter too much for the Hooch Hauler as not all Troll players want one anyway, but what about casters like Skarre 3, if she is the new hotness it's gonna be pretty crummy not being able to get her.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jan 9, 2018 16:36:09 GMT
A good point I heard raised on the WMHUKISS podcast was that BAHI is comparable to Forgeworld for GW, us in the UK have it easy with regards to Forgeworld as we can just pay regular shipping, or just go to Nottingham and pick it up in person. It could be argued that BAHI is just a flipside of that. However they also pointed out the difference between Forgeworld and BAHI, is that Forgeworld has always been (for the most part) large niche pieces and collectors items outside of the regular 40k game. BAHI by comparison is putting regular game models potentially out of reasonable access to a lot of players, it may not matter too much for the Hooch Hauler as not all Troll players want one anyway, but what about casters like Skarre 3, if she is the new hotness it's gonna be pretty crummy not being able to get her. Very much so. When I played GW games years ago Forgeworld models were novelties that you hardly ever saw here in the US. Every once in a while some fanboy who had more money than brains would show up at the LGS with a Baneblade. I think I have seen a Warhound titan once, and there is a LGS that has a painted Reaver titan in a display case. I never really kept up with Forgeworld over the years simply because back then they were never really a factor in GW-related gaming here in the US. If the exchange rates and shipping costs didn't dissuade you the idea of paying a pile of money for a novelty game piece certainly did.
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Jan 9, 2018 16:48:00 GMT
That's exactly what I was saying above. Think of BAHI models as Forgeworld models and you have the right idea. I.e. novelty models that aren't meant for mainstream consumption, but for collectors who are willing to pay extra for something big and special. Something for the display case, less for the table.
So I understand why many WM fans are not really fans of BAHI - players tend to be far more interested in practical game models and not luxury display models that only few people have. However, if people keep buying them, then I guess PP will keep making them, same as GW kept making Forgeworld.
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 9, 2018 16:56:18 GMT
wishingThe issue is, when you make those “collectors models” a main part of a theme, or a warcaster, or a factions only gargantuan, then suddenly it’s not like forgeworld. It’s now just a lame sub-section of the company relegated to making big expensive models and feels like a way to make a few extra dollars. I’m not saying “PP is evil” I’m saying using the forgeworld excuse doesn’t apply To warmahordes like it does to 40K. The hooch hauler in CiD, was advertised as the centerpiece for the typical northkin force. It’s supposed to be the awesome big model that embodies the northkin. Forgeworld models were mostly sub-factions, quirky superheavies (not commonly seen until GW made their own) or the odd giant special monster or character. You did not feel like your collection was missing something if you didn’t buy the silly overpriced mini. This is different, the way you collect models in this game, the way lists are designed, is just different. I like the forgeworld comparison less and less as this thread goes on.
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Post by trollsareblue on Jan 9, 2018 17:31:06 GMT
The Hooch Hauler and (to a lesser extent) the Northkin Raiders are introducing the idea of prestige pricing into WMH, and I don't care for it one bit. Yes, colossals and gargs were expensive as well, but they were still within what most players seem to think is reasonable. Gargossals are meant to be big, imposing pieces. Even the fluff supports that idea. The Hooch Hauler could have been smaller, and more reasonably priced, and still fulfilled its objective.
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Post by albertairish on Jan 9, 2018 17:53:34 GMT
That's exactly what I was saying above. Think of BAHI models as Forgeworld models and you have the right idea. I.e. novelty models that aren't meant for mainstream consumption, but for collectors who are willing to pay extra for something big and special. Something for the display case, less for the table. So I understand why many WM fans are not really fans of BAHI - players tend to be far more interested in practical game models and not luxury display models that only few people have. However, if people keep buying them, then I guess PP will keep making them, same as GW kept making Forgeworld. The comparison doesn't hold. The models that Forgeworld made were very rarely part of the regular codexes, and even if they were GW's conversion policy allowed you to build your own and use them in official tournaments. Not so for the Hooch Hauler and Privateer Press.
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