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Post by Azahul on Nov 8, 2017 1:47:32 GMT
Um, your math is bad, against an arm 18 target a standard spriggan charge does about 10-11 on average dice, an AP charge does 19-20. So...Yeah, 2/3 of an iron clad on the charge attack, at mat 8 cause charge. His math is perfect. The shield would do another 3 damage on average dice, but he'd lose the shield attack because he made a Special Attack. That makes the difference in damage around around six points.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Nov 8, 2017 1:50:34 GMT
And again I even argued against it because it's still a lopsided creation.
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Post by mcdermott on Nov 8, 2017 1:54:06 GMT
Um, your math is bad, against an arm 18 target a standard spriggan charge does about 10-11 on average dice, an AP charge does 19-20. So...Yeah, 2/3 of an iron clad on the charge attack, at mat 8 cause charge. His math is perfect. The shield would do another 3 damage on average dice, but he'd lose the shield attack because he made a Special Attack. That makes the difference in damage around around six points. The shield has an inch less reach and a 17ish% chance to do no damage at all. The idea that its any kind of tradeoff is disingenuous at best. Its akin to "here's a theme list that increases your deployment zone by 6" but you cant take kossites"
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Post by Azahul on Nov 8, 2017 2:07:34 GMT
The shield has an inch less reach and a 17ish% chance to do no damage at all. The idea that its any kind of tradeoff is disingenuous at best. Its akin to "here's a theme list that increases your deployment zone by 6" but you cant take kossites" I... that's quite some hyperbole. Do you want to reign it in a little? 17% chance to do no damage isn't equivalent to getting something potentially game-changing for nothing (assuming, as I guess you are, that you already lack Kossites in your list). Yeah, there are situations the shield won't get used. It's a buff to the Spriggan because it can get its maximum output at 2" reach instead of needing to close to 1". These are distinct from the argument over how much damage it will actually allow the Spriggan to do, however. Rowdy Dragon isn't wrong to include the shield when calculating the difference in average output between the two options though.
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Post by mcdermott on Nov 8, 2017 2:17:43 GMT
That extra inch of reach is pretty much the only thing that gets the spriggan a charge outside of niche caster use.
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Post by Cryptix on Nov 8, 2017 2:19:30 GMT
New profile pic get.
Take Spriggy discussion elsewhere.
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Post by greytemplar on Nov 8, 2017 3:57:40 GMT
Nothing seems blatantly OP. Though I have to say I cringed at the names of a few things. Jussika Bloodtongue? Really? Bad ripoff of Janissa Stonetide. Misery Cage. Bad ripoff of Wracks. A little more imagination please...
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Post by Cryptix on Nov 8, 2017 5:17:42 GMT
Nothing seems blatantly OP. Though I have to say I cringed at the names of a few things. Jussika Bloodtongue? Really? Bad ripoff of Janissa Stonetide. Misery Cage. Bad ripoff of Wracks. A little more imagination please... ...Holy Redeemer how did I miss that. That's just...wow.
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Post by dazzla on Nov 8, 2017 9:26:21 GMT
Nothing seems blatantly OP. Though I have to say I cringed at the names of a few things. Jussika Bloodtongue? Really? Bad ripoff of Janissa Stonetide. Misery Cage. Bad ripoff of Wracks. A little more imagination please... IMO there are a number of unnecessary minor buffs to a faction that is already very strong. Units like Black Ogrun in CID that IMO now appear stronger point for point than a number of comparable models in other factions. Individually, each is not that much, but overall it seems to be buffing models in a faction that is already strong. As an example, the Satyxis Blood Priestess increases the durability of Cryx warcasters. Given that Cryx has a very strong tournament record, is it necessary or even desirable to make Cryx casters less fragile? Especially through a solo that can effectively be used with all casters (even those that did not need enhanced durability).
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Post by jisidro on Nov 8, 2017 10:00:14 GMT
It is my belief that CID major purpose if to put models on the table. They seem to be trying to do it without breaking the game but that is the purpose.
The only way I can think of doing this when you have a huge stable of stuff you already sold and the secundary market is a real thing in minis is to release stuff people will buy. Power creep, endless power creep... As soon as you factor in faction sales into this spiral it can only get steeper and you need to keep the rich, richer...
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Nov 8, 2017 10:14:55 GMT
Nothing seems blatantly OP. Though I have to say I cringed at the names of a few things. Jussika Bloodtongue? Really? Bad ripoff of Janissa Stonetide. Misery Cage. Bad ripoff of Wracks. A little more imagination please... IMO there are a number of unnecessary minor buffs to a faction that is already very strong. Units like Black Ogrun in CID that IMO now appear stronger point for point than a number of comparable models in other factions. Individually, each is not that much, but overall it seems to be buffing models in a faction that is already strong. As an example, the Satyxis Blood Priestess increases the durability of Cryx warcasters. Given that Cryx has a very strong tournament record, is it necessary or even desirable to make Cryx casters less fragile? Especially through a solo that can effectively be used with all casters (even those that did not need enhanced durability). The minor buffs are fine as long as everything else is brought into line. If cryx continues to dominate and gains new stuff... Then there's a much bigger problem. Just on a general point, I haven't really kept up with the cryx cid- what's the investment like from players?
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Nov 8, 2017 13:53:03 GMT
I imagine it’s tough to get games in. Non-Cryx players don’t want to play against those blatantly OP units, and Cryx players don’t want to play a nerfed model.
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Post by Cryptix on Nov 8, 2017 14:05:32 GMT
IMO there are a number of unnecessary minor buffs to a faction that is already very strong. Units like Black Ogrun in CID that IMO now appear stronger point for point than a number of comparable models in other factions. Individually, each is not that much, but overall it seems to be buffing models in a faction that is already strong. As an example, the Satyxis Blood Priestess increases the durability of Cryx warcasters. Given that Cryx has a very strong tournament record, is it necessary or even desirable to make Cryx casters less fragile? Especially through a solo that can effectively be used with all casters (even those that did not need enhanced durability). The minor buffs are fine as long as everything else is brought into line. If cryx continues to dominate and gains new stuff... Then there's a much bigger problem. Just on a general point, I haven't really kept up with the cryx cid- what's the investment like from players? There's been the Denny and Satyxis nerf, but most of the problems are with the new stuff. Only things I'm worried about is: - Skarre3 has heavy boxes on a 13/19 base statline. - Priestess is just...why. Cryx casters don't need sucker, find something else. - Sevara is undercosted because she'll always be free. - Smog Belchers need to drop in range or get a cost hike. - The Ogrun Mechanics might be problematic, haven't tested them yet.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 8, 2017 15:34:30 GMT
The minor buffs are fine as long as everything else is brought into line. If cryx continues to dominate and gains new stuff... Then there's a much bigger problem. Just on a general point, I haven't really kept up with the cryx cid- what's the investment like from players? There's been the Denny and Satyxis nerf, but most of the problems are with the new stuff. Only things I'm worried about is: - Skarre3 has heavy boxes on a 13/19 base statline. - Priestess is just...why. Cryx casters don't need sucker, find something else. - Sevara is undercosted because she'll always be free. - Smog Belchers need to drop in range or get a cost hike. - The Ogrun Mechanics might be problematic, haven't tested them yet. I am happy a cryx player admits that skarre3 is too durable...I am currently sitting here looking at all the "skarre3 is green and all other casters should be as tough as her" bullcrap like...wow...alright...from the same people who were crying about things being op in the northkin CiD... Sucker is an issue and I don't honestly see how they think it was ok...lol too hard to balance and suggest changes without changing the priestess a lot. Smog belchers are a tad cheap...but they have actually not been as oppressive as I thought originally. Granted I don't play cryx much so when I use them I probably am not using them right.. mechanics are great. curse just seems unnecessary though. its juus a free +2 to attack rolls for any crx jack. Its a little to easy to apply because you don't need LoS.
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Post by darkshroud on Nov 8, 2017 15:44:13 GMT
i hope all this information is also going up on the CID forums...
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