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Post by sundaytaco on Nov 14, 2017 15:11:48 GMT
Good forum topic Trollock. I was able to bring a non-beast centric list in SotN to a local steamroller. I had good success with it, though I don't think my opponents (rask and kreugar1) were especially experienced with Borka's tankiness -Borka2 -axer -Rok -Mauler -Pyre -MaxStone -regular UA -Kriel warriors(max) -musician and standard -Fire Eaters -Fire eaters -Lanyssa -Fell Caller hero -Whelps -Gobber crew The things I ntoiced that I liked the most, was the amount of delay that kriel warriors would provide to one flank. Following lines contacting, B2's feat provided an extra annoyinf turn for the warriors, and then the axer was able to clear bunched up, stationary, infantry. As always the fire eaters dug in to their line and provided a good start to feat. Lanyssa and axer combined forces to get rok into weird spots and also start feat. B2 played pretty agressively, just because of his stats and my positioning. It was a fun list. I recomend trying Kreil warriors with him!
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Post by Ajax on Nov 14, 2017 19:57:00 GMT
So I've really enjoyed playing Borka 2 recently, but as far as his standing in the competitive scene, do you guys think he does enough to make it into your tournament 2-list pairings? I always feel like I'm having to build around him, or that what he does well could be done by someone better.
I'll probably keep at it, since he's my favorite model in the game, but curious about what you guys think so far.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 14, 2017 21:24:17 GMT
I am still not certain about his strength in a tournament pairing but Borka 2 is a fantastic choice for game nights when you can really only bring one list or can only expect to get in one game. You can build a versatile combined arms list that can at least put up a fight against anything the others are likely to bring and it's not something that they are likely to hate playing against.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 14, 2017 21:31:35 GMT
My favorite way to build Borka 2 is to put about half of my points into the battlegroup and the other half into the BE, solos, and independent units that can provide aggressive scenario pressure without much investment. In practice, that means Raiders, Fire Eaters, or Battle Bears. This is flexible yet easy on the clock. conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0GiV9DiRiU0hj20ki-iZiZj3Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Storm of the North !!! Your army contains a CID entry. (Borka 2) Borka, Vengeance of the Rimeshaws [+27] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Earthborn Dire Troll [14] - Rok [19] - Troll Axer [10] Valka Curseborn, Chieftain of the North [0(6)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (min) [6] - Northkin Elder [0(3)] Northkin Bear Handle & Battle Bears [10] Northkin Bear Handle & Battle Bears [10] Hearthgut Hooch Hauler [18] Though there are several variations on this.
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Post by deviantcad on Nov 15, 2017 2:33:09 GMT
After Trollock posted this I thought about it and and I don't really think Bearka is a beast or a troop caster. I don't think he is even really a combined arms caster. I think he is closer to a free heavy. With that in mind I made this: conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0biVfmjpiU04jq6R6Rfp0li-Ice Fishing - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Power of Dhunia (Borka 2) Borka, Vengeance of the Rimeshaws [+27] - Glacier King [35] - Mulg the Ancient [22] - Rok [19] - Winter Troll [8] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Dhunian Knot [6] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Northkin Elder [3] I'm looking forward to playing it on game night and should be fun. I know the GK seems out of place and it might be, but it lets you stack up knock down and immobilized on beast that go in on your under feat. The GK also saves you from having to cast concealment so you can dump everything into the stone first turn My personal favorite thing about the GK is you can use Bearka's feat to give the things in from of the opponents caster stealth to shoot through them and try to end a game with 3 pow 16 boostable shots. You could also the GK animus on Bearka to make a pretty big knock down bubble. Other then that it is just fishing for crits on the counter charge to mess up things that try to go in. I feel like the knot is going to be out of position for serenity more often then not, but I'll have to get it on the table to see. A MK and a basher might replace the GK and winter troll. Crit stagger can stop something before it attacks and the MK is an all around solid beast. Overall I think between the changes to him and the Runebearer he looks like a lot more fun and a lot less frustrating to play. Also am I right in assuming RoK would get to assault on a counter charge?
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ravenfire
Junior Strategist
Me Mulg me SMASSSSSHHHH
Posts: 244
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Post by ravenfire on Nov 15, 2017 7:28:54 GMT
I would replace one set of whelps for janissa.
You do not need that many whelps
And janissa’s Hill combined with consealment spell gives you +4 def for anything that is on the Hill
And you can use tectonic shift to disengage your beasts.
Def 16 janissa vs ranged is a thing. Def 18 borka vs ranged makes HIM safe enough
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Post by Trollock on Nov 15, 2017 7:41:00 GMT
After Trollock posted this I thought about it and and I don't really think Bearka is a beast or a troop caster. I don't think he is even really a combined arms caster. I think he is closer to a free heavy. With that in mind I made this: conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0biVfmjpiU04jq6R6Rfp0li-Ice Fishing - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Power of Dhunia (Borka 2) Borka, Vengeance of the Rimeshaws [+27] - Glacier King [35] - Mulg the Ancient [22] - Rok [19] - Winter Troll [8] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Dhunian Knot [6] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Northkin Elder [3] I'm looking forward to playing it on game night and should be fun. I know the GK seems out of place and it might be, but it lets you stack up knock down and immobilized on beast that go in on your under feat. The GK also saves you from having to cast concealment so you can dump everything into the stone first turn My personal favorite thing about the GK is you can use Bearka's feat to give the things in from of the opponents caster stealth to shoot through them and try to end a game with 3 pow 16 boostable shots. You could also the GK animus on Bearka to make a pretty big knock down bubble. Other then that it is just fishing for crits on the counter charge to mess up things that try to go in. I feel like the knot is going to be out of position for serenity more often then not, but I'll have to get it on the table to see. A MK and a basher might replace the GK and winter troll. Crit stagger can stop something before it attacks and the MK is an all around solid beast. Overall I think between the changes to him and the Runebearer he looks like a lot more fun and a lot less frustrating to play. Also am I right in assuming RoK would get to assault on a counter charge? If you want to bring Borka for his personal power, wouldnt the pyre troll be better than the winter troll? It sure allows Borka to dish out the hurt. Assault only works during a models activation though it seems Are you sure Mulg is the right way to go? He is a beast for sure, but with 4 Fury he doesnt hit THAT much harder than a Mauler, but he costs a lot more. Especially since you do not have Rage in the list, he is topping out at POW 20 (with Primal), and a Mauler would top out at POW 19 (with Rage). The Mauler will do more damage against some target by virtue of having more attacks. Borka doesnt need the arc node, but the spell hate is obviously good... Im not sure. You are probably right if you are going to put Borka in harms way. Having him immune to spells then would be very good...
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ravenfire
Junior Strategist
Me Mulg me SMASSSSSHHHH
Posts: 244
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Post by ravenfire on Nov 15, 2017 14:09:12 GMT
Depends. Mulg is one point higher in hit rating than the mauler.... and it depends on the def of the model it is attacking.
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Post by Trollock on Nov 15, 2017 14:27:56 GMT
Depends. Mulg is one point higher in hit rating than the mauler.... and it depends on the def of the model it is attacking. Im not really saying that Mulg is a worse beat stick than a Mauler, but he does cost almost 50% more. Since you have no use for the arc node i think it is important to think carefully about if it is worth 7 points for the anti magic capability.
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Post by deviantcad on Nov 16, 2017 4:10:05 GMT
ravenfireYou might be right about the whelps I'll give Janissa a try and see if it feels like I need more after the first game. Trollock You are right and the pyre would work with the mount attacks as well as the counter charge. I'll miss out on Bearka's counter charge knock down and immobilizing but it would really add to Bearka's potential. I think you missed a few thing with Mulg Trollock, he is base 19 again so 21 with primal and correct me if I'm wrong here but Bearka could channel sprays through him. Should even be able to spray my own stuff to free it up. The knot also help a little bit with crit smite on the counter charge. Between a GK, Mulg RoK and Bearka I don't think I'll need a mauler to break armor, or at least I hope not. Seems corner-case but I had another question. If something ended with in 2" of the GK but didn't engage it, Would it be able to counter charge? I know it couldn't move out of activation but it should still be able to get a nonboosted attack under those circumstances correct?
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Post by Trollock on Nov 16, 2017 7:13:08 GMT
ravenfire You might be right about the whelps I'll give Janissa a try and see if it feels like I need more after the first game. Trollock You are right and the pyre would work with the mount attacks as well as the counter charge. I'll miss out on Bearka's counter charge knock down and immobilizing but it would really add to Bearka's potential. I think you missed a few thing with Mulg Trollock, he is base 19 again so 21 with primal and correct me if I'm wrong here but Bearka could channel sprays through him. Should even be able to spray my own stuff to free it up. The knot also help a little bit with crit smite on the counter charge. Between a GK, Mulg RoK and Bearka I don't think I'll need a mauler to break armor, or at least I hope not. Seems corner-case but I had another question. If something ended with in 2" of the GK but didn't engage it, Would it be able to counter charge? I know it couldn't move out of activation but it should still be able to get a nonboosted attack under those circumstances correct? Having Borka (or the Winter itself) make ppl stationary does sound like a lot of fun. The few times i have actually played borka 2 in MK3 (pre buffs) i had at least one winter troll and even though i never actually managed to make it work, it felt really nifty. Pros and cons as always i guess, but if Borka is going to be making attacks, having +2 dmg on each adds up quickly. Yeah, sorry bout the Mulg POW mix up. As i said, i do not claim that he is a worse beat stick than a Mauler, but he is not THAT much better. I for one would never use primal on him if i didnt go all in for a caster kill. the frenzy is just too much to bare. Having Rage to make things hit hard is way preferable imo. Also, if you have a Mauler, you can make your GK hit at POW 22 as well, and he doesnt have to frenzy afterwards. The mauler thus increases the lists damage output over all quite a bit i think. Crit smite is SUPER good when it works, but since it is only 2 dice to hit in this case, the chance of it happening is way too low imo. Usually it will be on doubble 3s, 4s, 5s and 6s. that is 4/36 times. with a reroll that is 4/36 + (32*4)/(36*36) = ~22%. So in 78% of the cases where Mulg counter charges (assuming you had reroll on him) he does NOT crit smite. That is way too low for me to even really consider when building a list. It will be hilarious when it happens, and the opponent has to be wary of it, but i never bet on it happening. You have a good point about not needing more things to break ARM with. This list will probably do well in to all but the most egregious ARM skews. But bringing a Mauler would mean you could also afford another light like a night troll. I bet that a Mauler + Night troll will be able to kill more infantry than Mulg, and the list might also be better against high ARM due to Rage being available all around. The arc node to me seems really corner case. It assumes you activate Mulg first and free him up (and spending a fury to cast animus). Then Borka casts a spray or two with his impressive "RAT" of 5. Oh, and it has to be at something that Borka coundt just spray from where he stands, since he can spray while engaged. I wouldnt count that as a significant benefit. This leaves us with the anti magic capability, and that is a big thing! The question is if it is worth 7 points. Not really sure, but it may be, since you want to have your caster so exposed. Now i feel like i have "argued on the internet" enough on this fine point of list building. I merely wanted to bring up the subject in general. Mulg is a SUPER awesome piece, but i do not think he should be included by default in very PoD list forever. This was a case where it was at least debatable. If you play Doomy or Grissel 1 i think there is no question. Mulg is the way to go, but Borka 2 may or may not be as clear cut. My point was not really to convince you to change your list, but more to raise discussion and awareness Finally about the GK. I do not think he can make any attacks even if they do not engage you. Charging requires you to pivot to face directly towards your target, and he can not do that. Best check with the PP rules forum though. I doubt it will come up in games often enough to matter, but it is worth checking out to know. Knowing is half the battle and all that
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Post by deviantcad on Nov 18, 2017 4:49:28 GMT
Don't worry about that I don't think you are arguing at all Trollock at least not against me. And Mulg is good, but if I drop him the knot and min the stone all of a sudden I can get 2 maulers and few heavies are two mauler good. I appreciate the input and insight. I doubt I am the only one who doesn't get a chance for as many test games in as they would like and it is really helpful to have someone say " hey I tried that and it looks good on paper but I ran in to X let me know if you do too. They sprays in particular i see what you mean now.
So I got a game in and... it did not go well. Going second I really wanted something to start the piece trade with and I didn't have any options I really liked. I didn't want to lose the pyre's animus. losing the GK off the bad seemed like a bad idea and same went for Mulg and Rok.
Other take a ways RoK doesn't do a great job of killing infinite if they are spaced out correctly and MAGIC 5 was not cutting it for the spray to reliably clear things out with Bearka.
With so few pieces able to counter charge it was not a big problem to work around it.
I actually really liked the knot in the list puppet master lets you get by without boosting and serenity triggered more then I thought it would.
It was still fun to play and with practice I'm sure I could at least give the list more justice then I did. But I think I would drop the GK for maybe a bomber and an EBDT and drop Mulg for maybe a mauler and a swamp and maybe try to fit in a lightning.
In the end even if Bearka is not going to be tearing up the tournament scene he seems like a caster you could have fun with as opposed to the old rules where he was incredibly fury starved and constantly having control range issues. I do wish the Northkin theme did more for him though.
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Post by juicepimpson on Nov 24, 2017 2:56:44 GMT
Having 2 units of welps instead of just 1 is subjective IMO. Welps do a lot more than just remove fury, I use them a lot to block charge lanes, or limit the amount of models that can engage a heavy that's taking hits, and people don't expect them. You know how many games for other people I have ruined because the charged one beast in, spawned 3 welps, didn't get the job done, now my beast gets to live instead of die. I spawn welps sometimes when I know I don't need them to heal/deal with fury, because the best way to win a WM game is to be unpredictable, and welps are very unpredictable
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Post by juicepimpson on Nov 24, 2017 3:00:02 GMT
Having 2 units of welps instead of just 1 is subjective IMO. Welps do a lot more than just remove fury, I use them a lot to block charge lanes, or limit the amount of models that can engage a heavy that's taking hits, and people don't expect them. You know how many games for other people I have ruined because the charged one beast in, spawned 3 welps, didn't get the job done, now my beast gets to live instead of die. I spawn welps sometimes when I know I don't need them to heal/deal with fury, because the best way to win a WM game is to be unpredictable, and welps are very unpredictable I should also state that I mean ONLY in a beast heavy list. If not beast heavy, 1 is probably enough
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jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
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Post by jarrow on Nov 24, 2017 11:19:35 GMT
I played yesterday my first game with post-errata Borka2 and really enjoyed it. I liked Borka2 even on MK2 and now he is even better. <3
List was following:
Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Storm of the North
!!! Your army contains a pre-release entry.
(Borka 2) Borka, Vengeance of the Rimeshaws [+27]
- Dire Troll Brawler [16]
- Earthborn Dire Troll [14]
- Pyre Troll [8]
- Rok [19]
- Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)]
Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Swamp Gobber Chef [1]
Troll Whelps [4]
Kriel Warriors (max) [11]
- Kriel Warrior Standard & Piper [3]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
- Northkin Elder [3]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
My local shop couldn't have new northkins stuff yet so I wanted to proxy as few models as possible (I have scratch build Brawler, so only model I proxy was Elder).
I played against skorne and won by skenario as enemy run out of models. I clustered myself quite badly, but kriel warriors do their job being resilient front line. Also my beasts killed only couple of models and one beast but Borka itself killed 2 heavy.
Some thoughts about list, that I have to test more: - Do I need whelps? - Could EDBT be Bouncer and something else, like Valka? - Is runebearer actually worth of 5p, cos he is so slow compared to borka. +2 control is really nice ability even if I have to run every turn, but not sure if it's worth 5p.
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