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Post by macdaddy on Oct 26, 2017 15:58:43 GMT
krigsol ok...so firstly... I still think you are getting too worked up over this and I don't mean that as a personal attack.... Internet griping is...part of the internet. Honestly, I have not seen anything on this thread that is super duper negative other than calling out a cash grab..which is what this is. (IMHO) --where did you hear that from? I have never seen anything saying war room makes them nothing in profit. --The boxed set it not different. The extra cost to use war room is. Even the GW age of sigmar app lets you use the list builder for free all you have to buy are rules expansions, not updated model profiles. (at least the last time I checked...) --I am not saying 3 dollars is the inherent problem.... come on man...I have repeated myself like 4 times on this thread....the price is less of the problem as the principle of charging me twice for pretty much the exact same product. --yes we can... Battlescribe is an excellent list building tool AND provides rules references for my gaming. It even has damage grids last time I checked it you just have to print them out...It is also free....Also...capitalism says...if you can acquire a similar product for cheaper why not go for it. --Supply and demand dude...demand is all about consumers wanting something and it effects cost. Thats why name brand Ralph Lauren shirts are like 70 dollars a pop...but I can get just about the same shirt from Khols for 20 bucks because it does not have a little guy on a pony on the front...so yes...how much I want or need a product is factored into the cost. Its the same thing at theme parks. Or like when some anus started charging obscene amounts for water bottles on amazon when Harvey hit...welcome to economics.... --I wont pay it. I won't pay it because i have an opinion that thinks forcing me to pay for something twice is lame and because the utility of company of iron on war room does not seem to be worth it. War room is incredibly usefull at tournaments and on the go. But for company of iron, I am not wanting or needing that utility. If the cost was cheaper...I would be fine with it as it stands 3 dollars to use cards I already own seems like lame way for privateer press to "cover overhead" Charge me for something I don't already own and Ill be more enticed to purchase it.
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Post by krigsol on Oct 26, 2017 15:59:13 GMT
What does that have to do with anything? So they had the new guy write an Insider about some lists he was playing, that doesn't somehow make it not a narrative game. I'm honestly struggling to understand what your point is. WM/H grew up to be a tournament game.
God knows why they keep trying to develope narratives and my experience is that for most players that is 100% irrelevant when stacked against the rules. I followed the CoI stuff that came out and it never sounded like a narrative game apart from WM/H. Smaller armies, different scenarios but both the rulebook and advanced rulebook follow on the footsteps of Big Brother. There is no reference to tournaments just there isn't one in Primal/Prime. It's all on SR.
If the company presents the game as non-narrative when it is unveiling the game and generating hype... then it's not a narrative game.
"Company of Iron" was literally a narrative league in 2016.
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Post by krigsol on Oct 26, 2017 16:13:08 GMT
krigsol ok...so firstly... I still think you are getting too worked up over this and I don't mean that as a personal attack.... Internet griping is...part of the internet. Honestly, I have not seen anything on this thread that is super duper negative other than calling out a cash grab..which is what this is. (IMHO) Sorry, but that counts. The developers themselves. Privateer Press is not GW. That's all there is to it. GW can afford to eat the costs of app development. They are a worldwide company with many times the staff of GW, many times the profits, influence, and resources of PP. And like I've said, if it's the exact same product, don't buy it. Use the product that you've already bought. In reality it isn't the same product, for the reasons I already stated. I'll repeat myself, a third time: They have to outsource to a third party in order to develop and update War Room. It is an overhead cost that is not accounted for in their own labor hours. PP employees are already paid to develop rules, make cards, etc. It doesn't cost them anything extra to put them online, it is only a lost opportunity cost. When they push out a software upgrade in War Room, though, they are purchasing the services of Tinkerhouse. They have to recoup those costs through the deck purchase. If there are people that come in and only start playing Company of Iron, they have to either: release the cards for free, which means they are now paying to develop War Room without recouping costs; or they make people buy the decks from the Warmachine side, which costs more than the decks in CoI, and includes many, many cards that aren't even valid in the game (all warcasters and models with large or huge bases). Neither of these are viable scenarios. Making people pay little for their faction's CoI deck is the best compromise. Battlescribe isn't free. It pays for its development via ads. You have to pay to get rid of them. Yes, welcome to economics: The personal value that you as an individual are willing to pay for a product is not the larger determinate of something's cost. Your hand-stitched shirt from a local boutique costs more because it is made by the designer. Your kohls shirt is made in a Chinese factory. You not wanting the boutique shirt doesn't mean it should be sold for the same cost as if it was made in China. As PP pays Tinkerhouse to make their app rather than in-house development, and as their margins are too low to eat the cost, they have to make up the cost of development through the decks. No one is making you pay it.
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Oct 26, 2017 16:18:13 GMT
The health of the community is part of wargaming. Interestingly, I disagree with this part. It can be fun to have a community to interact with when it comes to a game, but in my view it's not required. You just need two people that want to play each other. Some of my favourite games are dead and/or self-invented, and have no communities. But they give me my wargaming kick just fine.
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Post by greytemplar on Oct 26, 2017 17:06:22 GMT
Cashgrab is so incredibly overused. What's so negative about PP trying to sell a game they spent time developing? I mean really. They release the rules and cards for free in a very accessible format, and then they charge for them in another, and people call it a cash grab. IF THEY WANTED TO GRAB YOUR CASH THEY WOULD NOT BE RELEASING IT ALL FOR FREE. Geez people. The entitlement level in here is off the charts. Thr war room price is the problem, not the product itself. They want to sell a boxed set with models for $100 bucks? Sure, that's a full-inclusion stand-alone game. They want to sell the cards+rulebook for $15? Sure, that's a tangible product that you're paying for, and gives you actual playing tools that will be more comfortable to use. But to charge players for the 'convenience'(I use that term very loosely) of having it in war room when the rules will be online for free anyways? That's nonsense. War Room has always been scummy since it's inception. Already owned the cards? Too bad, buy them again, but don't worry it's a one-time cost! New edition? Fine-print, motherFiretruckers, pay it again. And now after not mentioning anything about a war room price the entire time they were working on COI, they want everyone to buy whole decks AGAIN in war room. It's slimy. Could you be more entitled? Warroom isn't free for PP to operate. It wasn't free to update to the new edition, which actually gained us a much better running version of the app than the old one. Oh, and PP gave people discounts if you purchased decks you owned previously, so they were hardly trying to squeeze everybody for that last drop of cash. I don't get why you're complaining about COI. Its a totally different game, and implimenting its rules into warroom wasn't free. Its hardly unreasonable to ask you to pay for using it either. Its also a side project, not a full blown game. It will probably flop like all the other small formats PP has tried to do over the years so its not like you're missing out on anything. And if you really don't want to pay for it, download the free PDF.
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Post by jisidro on Oct 27, 2017 9:44:57 GMT
... Its a totally different game, ... How can you say this? Ofc you pay for the operation of a company but a 100% average app costing $100 and being increasingly non-optional is not the way to go IMO. If they sell models and fluff the rest should be a way to get you in the game, keep you there and lure you back in. Dilute the apps cost into the minis, which they probably do anyway... WM/H is no longer a cheaper mini games. As it is, it very hard to know what the hell is going on in general, what models are legal, where you can find the cards, are my cards still legal?, are the cards I printed legal?, which cards changed?... From what I've seen on other people's apps the changes made after an update is just written info... so you ahve to guess which cards have changed. Are you a good guesser? The game has a great rule set, a step learning curve and is very demanding. Why add a logistical complication where it doesn't need to be... Warroom as a paid product forces them to have other media available and muddles the waters. [/quote]
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Oct 27, 2017 11:17:57 GMT
Thr war room price is the problem, not the product itself. They want to sell a boxed set with models for $100 bucks? Sure, that's a full-inclusion stand-alone game. They want to sell the cards+rulebook for $15? Sure, that's a tangible product that you're paying for, and gives you actual playing tools that will be more comfortable to use. But to charge players for the 'convenience'(I use that term very loosely) of having it in war room when the rules will be online for free anyways? That's nonsense. War Room has always been scummy since it's inception. Already owned the cards? Too bad, buy them again, but don't worry it's a one-time cost! New edition? Fine-print, motherFiretruckers, pay it again. And now after not mentioning anything about a war room price the entire time they were working on COI, they want everyone to buy whole decks AGAIN in war room. It's slimy. Could you be more entitled? Warroom isn't free for PP to operate. It wasn't free to update to the new edition, which actually gained us a much better running version of the app than the old one. Oh, and PP gave people discounts if you purchased decks you owned previously, so they were hardly trying to squeeze everybody for that last drop of cash. I don't get why you're complaining about COI. Its a totally different game, and implimenting its rules into warroom wasn't free. Its hardly unreasonable to ask you to pay for using it either. Its also a side project, not a full blown game. It will probably flop like all the other small formats PP has tried to do over the years so its not like you're missing out on anything. And if you really don't want to pay for it, download the free PDF. War Room's cost is PP's problem. List-building software is hardly breaking new grounds, and PP chose to go with an overly-complex, clunky piece of software packed with unnecessary graphics to try and make up for in form what it lacks in function. That they expect players to fork out every time they make what should be a tiny change only further illustrates that point. They are charging for cards that are basically the same as the cards we already have, on a game that's being released for free. Of course that's squeezing money, that's literally the only reason for doing something like that.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Oct 27, 2017 16:33:15 GMT
Cash grab. Squeezing money.
Um, guys, we all remember that Privateer Press is a business that is out to make money, right? What did you expect, that everything would be free?
Those of you who dropped money into Warroom bought cards for the games Warmachine and Hordes. You got what you paid for. When those cards are updated for any changes to Warmachine and Hordes, Warroom will be updated for free. You are still getting what you paid for.
If you want the functionality, what little there may be, that goes with the application for their other game, Company of Iron, you will have to pay for it. Considering that they released the rules for free in PDF, you can use your existing miniatures in the game, and the only other required purchase are the Command and Commander Upgrade Cards, this should not be a surprise or a big deal. Again, what did you expect, that everything possible would be free?
Yes, it would have been smart on Privateer Press' part to announce the interaction of CoI on Warrom, including the costs and the benefits. The fact that that was not more publicly announced ahead of the release of the game is not part of some evil scheme to bleed you of your last hard-earned dollar, that is shitty, incomplete marketing.
If you want to complain about PP, complain about their shitty marketing, not about them being a business wanting to sell you something.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Oct 27, 2017 19:51:37 GMT
Cash grab. Squeezing money. Um, guys, we all remember that Privateer Press is a business that is out to make money, right? What did you expect, that everything would be free? Those of you who dropped money into Warroom bought cards for the games Warmachine and Hordes. You got what you paid for. When those cards are updated for any changes to Warmachine and Hordes, Warroom will be updated for free. You are still getting what you paid for. If you want the functionality, what little there may be, that goes with the application for their other game, Company of Iron, you will have to pay for it. Considering that they released the rules for free in PDF, you can use your existing miniatures in the game, and the only other required purchase are the Command and Commander Upgrade Cards, this should not be a surprise or a big deal. Again, what did you expect, that everything possible would be free? Yes, it would have been smart on Privateer Press' part to announce the interaction of CoI on Warrom, including the costs and the benefits. The fact that that was not more publicly announced ahead of the release of the game is not part of some evil scheme to bleed you of your last hard-earned dollar, that is shitty, incomplete marketing. If you want to complain about PP, complain about their shitty marketing, not about them being a business wanting to sell you something. People have stressed repeatedly that 5 bucks for the functionality would bother nobody. But unlocking the same cards again is an arbitrary paywall.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Oct 28, 2017 0:09:14 GMT
Cash grab. Squeezing money. Um, guys, we all remember that Privateer Press is a business that is out to make money, right? What did you expect, that everything would be free? Those of you who dropped money into Warroom bought cards for the games Warmachine and Hordes. You got what you paid for. When those cards are updated for any changes to Warmachine and Hordes, Warroom will be updated for free. You are still getting what you paid for. If you want the functionality, what little there may be, that goes with the application for their other game, Company of Iron, you will have to pay for it. Considering that they released the rules for free in PDF, you can use your existing miniatures in the game, and the only other required purchase are the Command and Commander Upgrade Cards, this should not be a surprise or a big deal. Again, what did you expect, that everything possible would be free? Yes, it would have been smart on Privateer Press' part to announce the interaction of CoI on Warrom, including the costs and the benefits. The fact that that was not more publicly announced ahead of the release of the game is not part of some evil scheme to bleed you of your last hard-earned dollar, that is shitty, incomplete marketing. If you want to complain about PP, complain about their shitty marketing, not about them being a business wanting to sell you something. People have stressed repeatedly that 5 bucks for the functionality would bother nobody. But unlocking the same cards again is an arbitrary paywall. I don't know how arbitrary it is, but I see War Room as a series of paywalls anyway. So you download the app for free (the drug dealer always gives the first hit for free) and you think: "Hey, I'd like to use this for my favorite couple of factions!" Oh, so you want this faction? Pay some money to get through the paywall. You want that faction? Pay some more money to get through another paywall. You want all of the factions? Pay a pile of money to get through all of the current paywalls. You want the new CoI functionality? Pay some more money. I think the only reason why it seems arbitrary is because it seemed to come out of nowhere. Considering that people thought there was a bug in War Room in regards to CoI on release day tells me that Privateer Press dropped the ball pretty bad on this aspect of the release. Of course the new paywall seems arbitrary - if this new paywall is a mystery up until it hits the only thing you can say about it that doesn't involve foul language is "arbitrary." If Privateer Press actually spent some time putting out info regarding CoI and War Room instead of yet another Youtube video with mindless drivel and incorrect use of the word "succulent" then this shitstorm of kvetching would be about 10 posts from the cheap-asses among us and 1 post telling them to STFU. I'm not telling anyone not to be angry - they should be angry. But instead of being angry about the money squeezing, cash grabbing, capitalist pigs at Privateer Press ( Duh! They're a business.) I think that you should be pissed about the craptacular job PP did of letting people know everything that they needed to know about the interaction of CoI and War Room. But hey, what the hell do I know?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Oct 28, 2017 0:53:43 GMT
I don't know how arbitrary it is, but I see War Room as a series of paywalls anyway. So you download the app for free (the drug dealer always gives the first hit for free) and you think: "Hey, I'd like to use this for my favorite couple of factions!" Oh, so you want this faction? Pay some money to get through the paywall. You want that faction? Pay some more money to get through another paywall. You want all of the factions? Pay a pile of money to get through all of the current paywalls. In a sense, your correct, but this whole war room pricing thing started arguably as a rival to traditional cards. In a sense just like with traditional cards your purchasing a "Deck". And once you own the deck you can use it however you want. Not only is this NOT the case, it's also half-assed. I am not required in ANY way to pay for new cards when using COI in real life if I had paid for cards, but this type of gating is only possible because of the digital format. Its also half-assed because this isn't even some content update. The cards still link to the original PDF making even USING it unwieldy and uncomfortable. If they did that beforehand we would be having this massive Female Dogfest BEFOREHAND. I have defended PP on NUMEROUS occasions but this is outright consumer-unfriendly business practices. You keep DEFLECTING any accusations by referring to PP as a business and so, therefore, any bad business practice is moot. But so many comparisons have been made too OTHER businesses and how even GW, king of the consumer-hostile doesn't pull this crap. You keep making this strawman that we are unhappy that PP wants to make money or that this functionality costs something. It's its execution.
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Post by Cryptix on Oct 28, 2017 3:15:18 GMT
Except that this isn't bad business though. I'm going to compare it to a video game. There's a new game coming out called Underwatch, and so you pay $60 bucks for it and that's it right? Only about a year later the developers announce they're making an anniversary edition that comes with new skins for the characters, and nothing else, for $70. Is that bad business? Because that's exactly what PP is doing.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Oct 28, 2017 5:59:30 GMT
You keep DEFLECTING any accusations by referring to PP as a business and so, therefore, any bad business practice is moot. But PP charging for new content on their app is not a bad business practice. That is standard practice. Cryptix made an excellent analogy to the videogame industry. As long as PP keeps delivering what you paid for, electronic versions of cards that you can use in Warmachine and Hordes, then they have kept up their end of the deal. If you want to use those same cards, with changes in functionality and verbage to adapt to CoI, then you need to pay a little more. Maybe because they don't have an app like War Room? Actually, they did pull this kind of crap, just on a grander scale whenever they made an edition change to WH40K or WHFB. Except instead of paying a little more money for an app ($20?) you had to replace half of your models and all of your books. GW was just a lot better with their marketing - they actually conditioned a lot of people into accepting GW's forced obsolescence design strategy. Um, you are the one that used the phrase "arbitrary paywall" after I had seen others complain about the money. That lead me to believe that the prospect of "paying more money for cards that had already been bought" was the central complaint, not a strawman. Look, my central message in all of this is: Don't be mad at War Room, or any of the money aspects related to War Room. Be mad at PP for botching the marketing messaging in regards to their key piece of software and how it relates to CoI.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Oct 28, 2017 6:57:55 GMT
I'm finding that nearly everything they do with war room is pretty crap-tacular, personally.
I have no problem with COI itself as it stands. I'll probably buy the rulebook+command decks $15 set they have, but I'm not touching the war room shit. I'll just use my normal warmachine cards for that.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Oct 28, 2017 13:13:15 GMT
Except that this isn't bad business though. I'm going to compare it to a video game. There's a new game coming out called Underwatch, and so you pay $60 bucks for it and that's it right? Only about a year later the developers announce they're making an anniversary edition that comes with new skins for the characters, and nothing else, for $70. Is that bad business? Because that's exactly what PP is doing. What? What kind of crappy example is that. That's a re-release, with some bonus content. A better example would be DLC or microtransactions which everybody DOES indeed call bad business.
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